Interesting saddle fitting

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Tinypony

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I need some opinions to check if I'm going mad. My fairly novice friend has a pony that started to protest about being ridden shortly after a new saddle was fitted. She has always been great and forward going before now, and is a really genuine type. Physio has been, found sore spot on the back under saddle panels, recommended some stretches and been back to confirm that pony is now looking great. Fitter came back this weekend, made some adjustments, and made various statements and recommendations:
It was pointed out that the saddle lifts at the back - apparently this is because of the shape of the pony and wouldn't cause problems when riding. It will be fine once the rider is on board. As this is because of the shape of the pony nothing else can be done.
She asked the rider to "sit lightly and a bit forward" so she didn't put too much pressure on the pony's back. (??)
She said the pony is too fat, and should be on restricted grazing or in a muzzle. Said pony is aged and I think in pretty good nick for her age. You can see her ribs, but she's had a few foals and has a bit of a belly. But then... she's been out of work for a few weeks having physio and waiting for the fitter to come back. She is definitely not obese and is on lovely poor unfertilised grazing.
She made a big thing of the fact that when the pony is asked to move her hindquarters away in one direction she steps nicely under with the nearest leg, but doesn't step under in the opposite direction. (I'd have thought this might be due to her being a little stiff, or a bit lazy, or not being asked correctly).
She also declared that the pony had tight muscles in her rump area, but the physio hasn't found any problems there and I can't see this.
I'll see what your thoughts are before I comment...
 
from what you have said it would appear that the saddle just doesn`t fit
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That's what I think. I don't think it ever fitted, because it was lifting before this re-fit. It seems pretty straightforward to me, saddle purchased, saddle bumping on back, pony starts to buck, physio finds sore spot under the panel on one side towards the back of where the saddle sits.
Problem is, my friend has brought this saddle, and now the fitter seems to be trying to say that it fits and that this is all the pony's fault for being the wrong shape. How on earth do you get your money back in this situation.
(And what do you think of saddlers recommending how to manage a pony's weight. She also recommended lunging her with her head "low" to slim her down. The physio didn't suggest that, so what makes a saddler better qualified to judge?).
 
the saddle should not flap up and down at the back,the weight should be evenly spread so i could imagine it maybe too tight at the front also.

how can the saddler say the pony is the wrong shape???,thats their job--to fit a saddle on a pony whatever it`s shape.

is this fitter reputable?i`d be rather worried by their statements and want to go elsewhere.
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What a load of Bol****ks!

Get that woman back and demand a new saddle. The pony is probably tight on her rump and I would suspect down her hamstrings too from trying to protect her back from that saddle.
 

This happened with mine when I asked around for a reputable saddle fitter in Cornwall. Got recommended a name, had him out to fit a synthetic saddle & he declared it fitted her fine.

A week later pony had started to stop being so forward going, hunched when you put the saddle on & after the first few rides (as it was synthetic we were told that it needed time to adjust and after a week or so it should be fine) we noticed it lifting at the back & pony being more & more tense when asked to go forward.

This was amaster saddler by the way.....

I demanded he either fix it & not charge me the second & third call out fee or else I wanted my money back. He would only refund half of the value of the brand new saddle to which I said that if I didn't get all my money back I woud be making a complaint as to his abilities to the Society of Master Saddlers.
He refunded my money & I got another saddler out & another synthetic saddle & it's been perfect.

In the end I did report him as my friend had the same problems with him.
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I saddle fit and yes I have told people their horse is the wrong shape - too fat, too thin or no muscle development. The Reason is because yes I can fit a saddle to the shape the horse is that day BUT An over fat horse will struggle to have a saddle that stays still. An overly thin horse will not be able to muscle up correctly in a narrow saddle and a horse with incorrect muscle development/ odd paces may well throw the saddle sideways, forwards, backwards etc. As a saddle fitter it is vital that the condition of the horse is discussed with the owner as well as possible future work to correct the shape. That needs to be be taken into consideration when fitting.

If I find one that is too thin/under muscles then the horse needs to be fitted with a saddle that is too wide and a prolite under neath it to allow the muscles to build up and the saddle to fit when the horse has built up. If you are fitting a horse which is too fat then you need to discuss that with the owner and explain that a saddle fitted to a fat horse will roll and as the horse looses weight will flap around and not fit.

In the instance above I am afraid it sounds as though your saddle is too wide. It is dropping at the front and lifting at the back. If it is slapping your horse at the back of the saddle it will cause a problem throughout the back.

Telling you to lean forward and ride light is total rubbish I can accept that when moving one way or the other she is not even - then yes that can cause a problem, and it I were fitting it and saw the same problem then I may suggest a different physio as I am not overly impressed with many physios/back people I have come across.

It may be worth getting a physio recommended by someone who is far more experienced than you and ask them for their independent advice, if it differs greatly from the previous physio then you need to decide which way to go.
 
I also saddle fit - same company as Bosworth. And agree - I always comment on the horse's shape, condition and conformation - for the same reasons as Bosworth. I also comment on the rider's style and if they are crooked etc. It also determines the saddle fit approach - many of the cases I see are remedial, and therefore I would expect to see the horse to refit very often, perhaps even every 3-4 months for the first year.

The light seat I can understand if the horse does not have any topline, then it is better to ride with a lighter seat and not sit deeply in sitting trot/canter etc - however with a saddle that is too wide in front (hence flapping in the back) going into a forward seat will only make the back rise even further.

I also give clients an exercise program to carry out between fits - it is important that consistent correct work is carried out so that the fit can be adjusted accordingly.
 
Just to make it clear, again, it's not my pony. I am not the fairly novice owner.
You have confirmed what I think, that is that the saddle can't possibly fit. It can't possibly fit because it lifts and moves on the pony's back. As this was pointed out during the visit, then it appears to me that she is more interested in making a buck than looking after the pony and rider properly.
The pony isn't overweight. She lacks a little topline, but not drastically so, she does not have a lack of muscle tone on her wither for example. I would say she is in very good shape for her age - which is anywhere between 15 - 20 years.
I don't think she is what you would term remedial - at least she wasn't until this latest saddle was fitted. She's actually been ridden very happily in a treeless saddle for a couple of years, but the change to treeless is for the benefit of her rider, who feels more secure in a style of saddle she is used to. Her back was great before the saddle change, we know that as she was vetted and we checked her as well ourselves.
Fortunately, the physio who came is reputable and recommended by the vet. The saddler however, I have never heard of, she works through a local tack shop. To be honest, I can understand a saddler suggesting some exercise ideas if they are confident that they know what is causing the discomfort in the horse. But surely you would be on dodgy ground if you didn't? As the saddler knew a physio had been involved and had only visited during the last week, I think it might have been more responsible to check with them before recommending a physical exercise plan? I mean, lunging is all very well if you are certain what you are dealing with, but it could aggravate some conditions.
You're all very kind to chip in here, it's much appreciated. Now we need to find out... what do we do when the saddler inevitably refuses to give a full refund? Because I can't see why my friend would want to risk buying another saddle from her, even if she will take this one back.
p.s. a light seat is rather different to asking a rider to sit tipped forward isn't it?
 
I have to agree with the others, this saddle simply does not fit.

Tinker_Belle - any chance you could PM me the name of the saddle fitter please (want to make sure I don't call him!!)
 
ummm,difficult.
what you really need is a second opinion from another saddler but they may not want to get involved in anothers work.
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I have a friend who took a well-known fitter to court, but couldn't find a single saddler prepared to stand up and give a statement for her. So let's hope we can sort it out without too much trouble, but I doubt it somehow.
 
If the saddle lifts at the back it will do it when being ridden and is not good for the horses back at all! The back will become sore where the saddle goes up and down and there will be muscle wastage at the front where the saddle pivots up and down. The saddle doesn't fit if it does that.
 
I thought that by asking her to "sit lightly and a bit forward" that she was recommending a forward seat to take the weight off the pony's back, not to lean forwards thus putting the pony on the forehand.

I would get the vet to make a report about the horse's back and the saddle then give it to the saddler. Under the sales of goods act 1979 the goods have to be fit for the their purpose and clearly this saddle isnt. May have slight difficulties if saddle bought a long time ago and now "not fitting" (horses do change shape) so make sure you get the vet to confirm that muscle wastage occurred from badly fitting saddle and how long it would take to get into current condition. Also, make sure that you tell vet that saddler checked saddle only 2 weeks ago. All well and good getting a physio out but you really need a vet for this job.

As for suggesting exercises - these are merely to even out muscles and to build up topline. We are trained to examine the back for signs of tension, atrophy and pain in the same way that we know when watching a rider ride whether the horse is moving freely in its back under the saddle or if there is any tension or resistence. If the pony was in actual physical discomfort upon examination, I would tell the owner to stop riding and get the vet out and I wouldnt fit the saddle.
 
Update. The vet has been. He has confirmed that there are no physical problems with the pony, no tension in her muscles, no worry about her hindquarters being stiff...
(No need for any remedial exercises in other words).
There is no need for starvation paddocks or grazing muzzles either.
He has also confirmed that the saddle doesn't fit, in fact he says that it could never have been made to fit as it is completely the wrong shape for the pony. He says it is too small overall, it is pinching her shoulders and, as we agreed above, flapping about at the back. So my friend will be speaking to the saddler about a refund. The vet will support her if needed. The saddle was only purchased about 5 weeks ago by the way, and has been used twice, but the vet says that this isn't a matter of changing shape, the saddle couldn't physically have ever fitted.
Thanks everyone, very constructive discussion.
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Sorry - but it sounds to me as though the saddle is too wide and has dropped down on the withers which is why it is lifting. That could be because the pony has lost weight and yes in 5 weeks it could lose quite a lot.

The problem will be that even if your vet writes a note, if it ends up going to trading standards the saddler will simply say the horse has changed shape, dropped weight etc. And unless you have the wither patterns taken on the day it was fitted and a current pattern to prove that the pony is the same shape you will struggle. If you end up going to the SMS you will struggle as they are a real closed shop and will support any SMS fitter regardless of how bad the fit is.

Also I have only ever met one vet who has a clue about saddle fitting. To say it is too small over all and yet pinching her shoulders and flapping at the back is a total contradiction - if it is dropping on the withers and thereby pinching the shoulders it is too wide which is why it is lifting.
To take the situation further your friend will need to get teh original saddler out, detail the specific problems and give that saddler the opportunity to rectify. If then they don't then she will need to go to trading standards and take it from there. Going to the SMS will probably get you no where but trading standards might
 
Thanks Bosworth. The saddler actually stated that the pony had put on weight.
The saddle looks perched on top of the pony, it doesn't sit well on her at all. It does pinch her withers, I know that is contrary to what you'd expect, but it really does. Even when the vet was checking around the saddle with his fingers she started flinching. And as soon as she moves it bobs about all over the place. It also looks too short on her, if that makes sense, she's a substantial cob and it looks like a pony saddle plonked on top. I think it was just the wrong saddle for her shape from the start.
We also put one of my saddles on her, that was a very obvious better fit, and she immediately started to move more freely when trotted up, and her stride was more bouncy.
I know this will be difficult, but the vet says he knows of the saddler and has spoken to her in the past, and this is the first problem he has heard of. If she isn't interested in being helpful, then he will talk to her. Hopefully she will feel it is worth keeping his good opinion.
I think it's relevant to say that this pony had no issues at all until this saddle was fitted, and then two rides and within two weeks she started bucking and was obviously uncomfortable. So it's not so much what has happened to her weight in 5 weeks, this problem was caused very quickly. I can't state how good a pony she is, she puts up with a lot. I think she was really uncomfortable to react in this way.
My regret is that I didn't speak up when the saddle was first fitted, I thought I was seeing all of this right at the start, but didn't butt in because it isn't my pony, and I thought "the fitter must know what she's doing". Sometimes we need to trust our instincts.
 
It sounds as though the saddler didn't actually have a saddle that fitted your pony so just went with something she had. It certainly sounds as though it didn't fit from the start. Some fitters seem incapable of fitting a cob yet it is not really that hard.

Good luck with getting a replacement. At 5 weeks she should simply replace the saddle.
 
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