Irish cob, with a problem or 2

RuthnMeg

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I look after (amongst others) a 7 year old coloured 16.2 cob gelding called 'Murphy'! I adore him, he really is a favorite.
He is currently off work due to a slight tendon injury, but has done his stint of box rest and is now 'tiny patch paddock bound'. However, during one of his scans, it turns out he also has the start of navicular. I don't know much about the prognosis of this, how fast it will develop and whether or not he will become the main hunt horse next season, like he was last 2 seasons - he is a fab hunter!
Anyway, after his box rest stint, he now wants to be an indoor horse, so after only about 30 mins out, he starts charging around, turning it to mud! He has a 'thing' about not being caught (so I keep getting told), but i've never found it a problem, although he does give you the 'suspisious' look. The male owner can't even touch him, Murphy would climb walls to escape him. I feel so sorry for him, bottom of the line to 'do', he looks like a furry war horse! I adore this horse, and its so nice to have a horse who looks for you. I hope he will recover fully to do his job next year.
Anyway, questions - how to keep a horse happy other than food? and, peoples experiences with navicular please. I would offer to have him on loan if he can't be a hunter, but what iam I letting myself in for?!?
And another thing, what do Irish horses go through to become so nervous of men?
Thanks guys in advance.
 
Poor chap. Navicular - had a horse with it, she was prescribed the well-known drug for this condition whose name escapes me for a moment (! I'll google it if you want) and was fine to hack, school, dressage and show! Regarding Irish horses from my personal experience I have seen them be ear twitched for the slightest reason, shouted at, hit and handled in the most rough and thoughtless manner you could imagine. Had the horse had just a tiny bit of training, i.e. yield quarters to a touch, none of it would of been necessary. I have seen many nervous Irish horses.

Re keeping occupied WITHOUT food it depends if they have a 'play drive' as to whether they will interact with other objects, i.e. paper sacks, rubber feed bowls, watching chickens - assuming you have some handy. Bit of a loss on that one but, if you have time (haha) you can teach him tricks using clicker training or even.....Parelli which you can actually spend many an hour making them walk over, under, through, up to, around objects etc and do various 'fun' things. Not something I actually do but I can see some uses in this situation.
 
Ditto the nervous Irish horses.

Going barefoot with him would almost certainly cure the navicular issues. Can't hunt barefoot? Watch mine!! If he isn't taken barefoot anything could happen. He could be fine forever, or he could go lame tomorrow and never come right. If his shoes are currently off for his rest, try leaving them off when he starts work. You aren't that far from Rockley Farm, the barefoot navicular rehab place, and I'm sure Nic would show you all her successes hunting Exmoor.
 
cptrayes .. such a bold statement to say that navicular will be cured by taking the shoes off!! half the time the syndrome is caused by bad shoeing, and barefoot in the field is different to being hunting fit and hunting in the field!!! isoxuprine is navilox (different trade names) same drug! not getting into the argument of barefoot versus shod. almost the same argument as good farrier bad farrier!..................... sorry i think i jumped the thread!!
 
Barefoot would certainly mask navicular with the 101 other lameness issues it causes.

Rediculous suggestion. Absolutely rediculous.

RE irish horses - blooming lucky with mine that she has a 3 second memory. Some of my other cobs have cowered at the sight of a shavings fork. Disgusting what happens to them before they get here.
Just been to see my friends new connie who is nervy too, so it's not just cobs!

As for keeping him occupied, deffo play games. But do not try likits!! Cobs are not stupid - mine eat (not licked!) hers and then went on a sugar high!
 
Dont get me started on what happens to them. there are some very very good horse people in ireland. Unfortunately there are plenty of horrific things that happen to horses here too.


Sorry to hijack but as an example, saw a 9 month old foal for sale on donedeal yesterday - already broken as a trotter. 9 MONTHs OLD!!!! Poor thing. There are thousands of them here. I know a cob is very different than a trotter, just saying.
 
QR- As far as i'm aware you cannot 'cure' navicular, you can only maintain it and slow the process down.

My horse has navicular and although he isn't able to jump he is sound and happy. I was told to be picky what surfaces i rode on -eg less roadwork in trot to avoid concussion.

Cortisone injections are sometimes given to horses that are lame through navicular. In my case it worked *touches wood*.

I also find turnout and religious shoeing helps my horse. He was in bar shoes and silicone pads in the summer to help him cope, he is now in normal shoes again. *touches some more wood*

Hope this helps
 
There is increasing evidence that navicular is curable and that it can be cured by a proper barefoot rehabilitation program. There is a project currently underway which has had outstandingly successful results so far. Leahurst (Liverpool University veterinary arm) will be publishing the research once sufficient cases have gone through the program. We hope this will be this soon.

Outside of that scientifically run project, there are dozens of successful barefoot rehabilitations, some of which have been done by people who post on uknhcp.myfastforum.org People on that forum will help anyone who wants to save their horse from a lifetime of "remedial shoeing", drugs, retirement to a field or being put down.

haper-gal if you think barefoot causes 101 lamenesses from what you have seen, then the people you have seen take the shoes off their horses have not done it right. There's a lot more to it than taking off the shoes. There are plenty of horses around that would otherwise have been shot who owe their lives to it. I have evented 5 barefoot horses and hunted 2 more and taken another 2 barefoot with no issues. I have failed with none, but I am able to provide an almost optimum environment for them to live and work in, and the right feeding. Many owners would not be able to do that.

Far from the idea of curing navicular with barefoot being ridiculous, it is being shown in action at rockleyfarm.co.uk, with video of cured horses out hunting on rockleyfarm.blogspot.com Their most impressive case was an 18 year old who had been in heart bars for 6 years and was lame. He is now 23 and happily jumps hunter trials and has not had a lame day since he was rehabilitated. His MRI scans show no sign of the disease now.

To the original poster - try to buy the horse (he's not worth much more than meat money with navicular changes if he fails front flexion tests), take him shoeless (if he's a cob he might do it very easily) and you will have got yourself a total bargain!
 
The only scientific papers I can find suggest that barefoot trimming has no intention of 'curing' navicular but MAY, over a period of YEARS, result in horses coming sound.
But there is no conclusive evidence, which is why vets and farriers cannot support it.

Also, Strasser herself has said barefoot trimming is unsuited for horses who spend most their time inside.

Therefore it is wholly inappropriate to suggest it as a medical cure when there is a) no evidence and b) evidence to suggest it is wholly unsuited for the horse the OP described.
 
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Poor chap. Navicular - had a horse with it, she was prescribed the well-known drug for this condition whose name escapes me for a moment (! I'll google it if you want) and was fine to hack, school, dressage and show! Regarding Irish horses from my personal experience I have seen them be ear twitched for the slightest reason, shouted at, hit and handled in the most rough and thoughtless manner you could imagine. Had the horse had just a tiny bit of training, i.e. yield quarters to a touch, none of it would of been necessary. I have seen many nervous Irish horses.
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Excuse me??? That has to be one of the broadest, most insulting sweeping statements i have ever heard. Cruelty goes on everywhere, including in the UK. I have worked as a dressage rider and freelance instructor in a number of areas the UK, so I do feel that I have some idea what I am talking about. However I would never, ever say that all horses in the UK are mistreated because of course that is not true.

To say that all Irish horses have been mistreated is nothing short of racism and I would love to know what you are basing this assumption on. Considering how many good Irish horses are actively sought out by foreign buyers would somewhat dispute that statement, including horses that are broken and performing (such as in the Future Event Horse League) before you say that they are all bought unhandled.
Perhaps you should think first before making such racist comments!
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RE irish horses- Irish horses are not spoilt. End of. They aren't hand fed endless carrots, polos etc. and often are left fairly feral till they are ready to break, hence being slightly more nervous than their english cousins. I would pick an irish unspoilt horse over a grumpy english homebred any day!
 
Havent posted on here in some time...

Of course, based on the assumptions in this thread, all English people are cruel to their horses - look at Spindle Farm.
 
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RE irish horses- Irish horses are not spoilt. End of. They aren't hand fed endless carrots, polos etc. and often are left fairly feral till they are ready to break, hence being slightly more nervous than their english cousins.

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Really? I must let my yard know this so we can all desist in pampering our horses!

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Really? I must let my yard know this so we can all desist in pampering our horses!

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I'll save a small fortune not buying all those polos!
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The only scientific papers I can find suggest that barefoot trimming has no intention of 'curing' navicular but MAY, over a period of YEARS, result in horses coming sound.
But there is no conclusive evidence, which is why vets and farriers cannot support it.

Also, Strasser herself has said barefoot trimming is unsuited for horses who spend most their time inside.

Therefore it is wholly inappropriate to suggest it as a medical cure when there is a) no evidence and b) evidence to suggest it is wholly unsuited for the horse the OP described.

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Two of my horses are shod Harper_gal, so I am in no way an evangelical barefoot advocate. Not that I have anything against it as I have two un-shod as well.

However, my farrier DOES recommend having the shoes removed on horses with sheared heels and navicular.

I have hunted alongside three people, one who posts on here, who keep their horses barefoot.

One of them was crippled in April and ready to be shot, due to Navicular. She is now in full work, obviously, and sound.

If barefoot causes 101 other illnesses....start listing!
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Thank goodness someone made this point before I hit the roof. I too have lived, worked and competed in both the UK and Ireland.

I wonder what type of yards some people have visited in Ireland, as it would appear from the statements made on here that people are dealing with less than reputable dealers. It is a pity that such sweeping statements are made about Irish horses and in fact the Irish equestrian community at large. I too take extreme exception to some of the statements made inthis thread.

Breaking foals to trot in harness would certainly not be the normal equestrian practice. It does however happen within the travelling community.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The only scientific papers I can find suggest that barefoot trimming has no intention of 'curing' navicular but MAY, over a period of YEARS, result in horses coming sound.
But there is no conclusive evidence, which is why vets and farriers cannot support it.

Also, Strasser herself has said barefoot trimming is unsuited for horses who spend most their time inside.

Therefore it is wholly inappropriate to suggest it as a medical cure when there is a) no evidence and b) evidence to suggest it is wholly unsuited for the horse the OP described.

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Strasser trimming would not meet the National Occupational standards for trimming which are on the point of being published. In effect Strasser trimming will be illegal in this country. Enough said on Strasser

You aren't reading the right stuff. Read the stuff I pointed you to and watch the videos.

If you don't call an eventer eventing again drug free with clear MRI scans a cure, what do you call it then?
 
The guy who I took a horse to learned his trade in Ireland only a few years before. He told me that they kept a container (like off a cargo ship) to bridle them in, so that they smacked their heads on the roof if they tried to resist. He also routinely split the sides of the mouth of horses he was breaking in and told me that they "should" be like that, so that they respect the bit.

I'm not suggesting by any means that all or even most Irish horses are broken this way, but it doesn't seem to be uncommon amongst the lower-end dealers who buy a batch of unbroken IDx's out of a field, break them, hunt them and sell them.
 
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The guy who I took a horse to learned his trade in Ireland only a few years before. He told me that they kept a container (like off a cargo ship) to bridle them in, so that they smacked their heads on the roof if they tried to resist. He also routinely split the sides of the mouth of horses he was breaking in and told me that they "should" be like that, so that they respect the bit.

I'm not suggesting by any means that all or even most Irish horses are broken this way, but it doesn't seem to be uncommon amongst the lower-end dealers who buy a batch of unbroken IDx's out of a field, break them, hunt them and sell them.

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And you brought a horse to this person???
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As I have said this sort of stupity goes on everywhere and is certainly not confined to Ireland. So you were basically basing your knowledge and previous statement on a UK based person who "learned" his "trade" in Ireland!!??

No reputable Irish producer (incl myself) would ever indulge in such practices. There are cowboys everywhere I'm afraid, it's like anything, you need to get references and only deal with reputable people and again I will say - that applies everywhere and is not an "Irish" thing as some people here are suggesting.
 
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Poor chap. Navicular - had a horse with it, she was prescribed the well-known drug for this condition whose name escapes me for a moment (! I'll google it if you want) and was fine to hack, school, dressage and show! Regarding Irish horses from my personal experience I have seen them be ear twitched for the slightest reason, shouted at, hit and handled in the most rough and thoughtless manner you could imagine. Had the horse had just a tiny bit of training, i.e. yield quarters to a touch, none of it would of been necessary. I have seen many nervous Irish horses.
.

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Excuse me??? That has to be one of the broadest, most insulting sweeping statements i have ever heard. .... However I would never, ever say that all horses in the UK are mistreated because of course that is not true.

To say that all Irish horses have been mistreated is nothing short of racism and I would love to know what you are basing this assumption on. Considering how many good Irish horses are actively sought out by foreign buyers would somewhat dispute that statement, including horses that are broken and performing (such as in the Future Event Horse League) before you say that they are all bought unhandled.
Perhaps you should think first before making such racist comments!
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Thanks for saying it better than I could.
Nobody's saying everywhere is perfect (either side of the Irish Sea) but to make such a sweeping statement is appalling.
 
I didn't know until several days after when I went to ride my horse. He came highly recommended by people who event and breed their own. I'd never take another one to him and I have advised others not to take their horses to him. The yard he trained at is well respected for producing young Irish horses too. He spoke of them as if what they did was accepted practice throughout Ireland. They buy fields of wild unhandled horses and produce them to sell on quickly as broken. I'm sorry if I have quoted his example in error when it is actually an isolated case.

The word you use is reputable, and I am sure there are lots of reputable producers in Ireland. But there seem to be a lot of disreputable ones as well. I've seen several passports and vetting certificates for Irish imports that do not match the horses that they come with. The last one I saw mentioned splints but no foot problems on a horse which had impressive sandcracks and no splints. She was also 4 and not 6. If you mention the vet certificate around here (Cheshire) people who buy and sell horses will just laugh and say "did it come from Ireland?".

I notice that Gorsebridge sales now insists on vetting certificates being done by one of a small panel of trusted vets. If you buy from Brightwells, the UK equivalent, there is no such restriction on which vet can do the inspection. I think that speaks for itself, doesn't it?

Ireland breeds some great horses at good prices. I got an absolute cracker last year cheap from a dodgy breeder via a disreputable dealer. He made a great all-rounder (and a lot of money :-) ! Long may Ireland continue to produce gems in the rough alongside the classy ISH's that are coming on the market lately.
 
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The word you use is reputable, and I am sure there are lots of reputable producers in Ireland. But there seem to be a lot of disreputable ones as well. I've seen several passports and vetting certificates for Irish imports that do not match the horses that they come with. The last one I saw mentioned splints but no foot problems on a horse which had impressive sandcracks and no splints. She was also 4 and not 6. If you mention the vet certificate around here (Cheshire) people who buy and sell horses will just laugh and say "did it come from Ireland?".

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Well that's a coincidence because I came across a lady who moved here from the UK a few years ago and she actually admitted to me that she had two passports for her horse. One detailing all of his dressage points and another where the horse had miraculously acquired a new name and lost all those points. I was appalled. As for the comment "Did it come from Ireland" I think we are way ahead of the UK when it comes to passports for horses. So many top british bred competition horses are listed as breeding unknown, whereas it would be unusual these days to see it after an Irish bred competition horse.
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I notice that Gorsebridge sales now insists on vetting certificates being done by one of a small panel of trusted vets. If you buy from Brightwells, the UK equivalent, there is no such restriction on which vet can do the inspection. I think that speaks for itself, doesn't it?

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Not neccessarily - does that mean that ANY vet including a best buddy of the vendor can do the vetting????
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Ireland breeds some great horses at good prices. I got an absolute cracker last year cheap from a dodgy breeder via a disreputable dealer.

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You really seem to be going out of your way to deal with the dodgy ones don't you?
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QR
Is it not so much better for qoresbridge to do this??
Theres a hell of a lot more vets in the uk struck off for dodgy practises than there is in Ireland, imo EVERY sales ring should insist on vet certs only obtained by a select group of vets.
It makes me laugh, on this forum hearing of people "rescuing" Irish horses!!!
There is cruelty everywhere in the world but it is no more apparent ireland than the uk, and less so in ireland imo.
Thank god some people here talked a bit of sense before i blew a fuse.
 
Wow I am shocked at the blatant Irish hating on here. Stunned. If I was to make the same assumtions then are most english people amazingly ignorant? Can you imagine if I said my horse had issues because he was bred by a dodgy black dealer? or reared by a Polish person god the PC brigade would be up in arms. But when its the Irish its okay.

Just a bit of education for those who are confused - Ireland is a country about a few hours from your own by plane or boat. We have electricity and tv and we can read and write. We do dressage, we show jump and we produce damn good horses! We do not leave youngsters feral (god how big do you think the freakin country is?!) nor are they beaten or ear twitched into submisseion - what have you people been sniffing?!

A nervous horse is a nervous horse, bad handling is bad handling its not determined by address! To assume a horses behaviour is simply resultant from where it came from is madness! did it ever occur to you that maybe - the horse stresses when kept in and prefers to live out or the male owner handled it badly or its deficient in magnesium or something else causing anxiousness or it doesnt want to be caught because it knows that results in being kept in which it does not like and does not understand that its for its own recovery ? There are so many possibilities if you stop making assumptions and engage your brain.

ironically a team from a riding club in ireland went to the UK this year to represent Ireland in the british open championships, the team came 8th and oen of the riders came third in the individual against over 70 UK riders - not bad for our feral little country
 
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I've seen several passports and vetting certificates for Irish imports that do not match the horses that they come with. The last one I saw mentioned splints but no foot problems on a horse which had impressive sandcracks and no splints. She was also 4 and not 6. If you mention the vet certificate around here (Cheshire) people who buy and sell horses will just laugh and say "did it come from Ireland?".

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For what reason is it presumed that all passport swapping takes place in Ireland?

There is a UK dealer that buys most of the vet failures at Goresbridge sales. Is it not indeed possible that some of the passport changing does not happen here?

Remember that the vetting at the sales is NOT a 5* vetting. Purchasers have the option to have a full vetting (plus bloods taken) at the sales within 30 minutes of the sale. It would appear that this option is not taken up by some of the UK dealers!
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I notice that Gorsebridge sales now insists on vetting certificates being done by one of a small panel of trusted vets. If you buy from Brightwells, the UK equivalent, there is no such restriction on which vet can do the inspection. I think that speaks for itself, doesn't it?

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Is this suggesting that the Irish vets are "dodgy" as well?
 
I am absolutely shocked and disgusted by the racism in this thread. I think it is showing huge ignorance from those who are making such comments on our Irish horses and producers without obviously having any real proof to back up such slanderous statements.

As others here I have both lived and worked in the UK as well as here at home. I have seen cruelty in both countries, but one instance stands out to me more strongly than any other and that infact was in the UK.
That is not to say that all cruelty is there, but we should be happy to sit back and see the ridiculous comments bandied about over us?
There has been a panel of vets in Goresbridge for a long time and to me it makes perfect sense as to why, for me this guarentees a better and more reliable service when purchasing, I agree that this should be common practice in all sales areas.

If it is so 'horrific' here and all our horses are so nervous and beaten down....why so do so many English continue to come here? I have seen some hefty prices paid for our horses so it's not for the bargains!!

If statements are made, make sure you have sufficent first hand knowledge and proof of what you are talking about before writing down random, unsubstantiated, slanderous, rude and racist comments.
 
CPtyres, there are so many types of navicular changes. Ty's heels are graduly collapsing (as a result of the start of navicular apparently) and being barefoot would be the worse thing for him!

Ruthnmeg, my cob pony was like that when I got her - she would come at you in the field with her ears flat back and threaten you. Within 2 weeks people were amazed at the change. Maybe he just needs an owner?

There is such a thin line with cobs though - let them get away with murder and they're bolshy hideous things on the ground and too heavy and they can be quite nervy. He sounds lovely though and my advice would to be to get your own vet to look at him. People use the word 'navicluar' too much these days when apparently true navicular is quite rare....it could just be slightly collapsed heels - if Ty isn't shod very short with natural balance he shows navicular like lameness (intermittent on either front leg). Shod properly he's fine!
 
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