Irish Derby

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Augusta Rodin is such a stunning looking horse

But yet again, after Canute last weekend, there's a sickening snapped back leg this time for poor San Antonio.

Is this being investigated? What is the answer?

Reading a thread about it on a racing forum and they're suggesting inbreeding? Both are AOB so are the Coolemore horses quite closely related given they're such a big operation, or do they outsource? Is there Taboo about doing such things?

Is it the ground?

There was a spate of it on the jumps after COVID where legs were just going on the flat

It's just giving the animal rights campaigners extra ammunition, it's not exactly discreet when it happens.

We then have so many flat breds being sent hurdling - surely they haven't been bred with that in mind? So are we bringing this issue into the jumps. Denman used to be a huge tank of a horse, you rarely see ones like him now. Take AR for instance - he looks so finely built, yet if he wasn't being successful on the flat, there seems to be more ex AOB horses going jumping - would his legs stand up to it?

Kind of Steel, who was 2nd in the Derby, almost looks an exception as he looks much bigger and almost bull like in comparison

 

[Jenko109]

I question if we would have the same breakdowns if they were not ran until a bit older. Surely it would be no great hardship to racing if the races started for 4yos rather than 2yos.

I've also always wondered why we stick to thoroughbreds? I get they are the fastest, but from a punters perspective, seeing another breed race in is hardly going to change the atmosphere? Racing a breed with more bone may not be as fast, but we perhaps would not see the same level of breakdowns.

Yes. That's right. I want them to race 4yo welsh cobs

 

[Jenko109]

To add. I know this would just result in them ruining the breed in pursuit of speed over typeyness. I'm just musing.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Firstly - the breakdowns after Covid. The BHA vets did extensive research into this and came up with the solution of horses were brought back into work too quickly and rushed to race because no great time scale was given for when racing would restart. They just popped up and said "start flat racing in 3 weeks guys". So of course many horses weren't in work at all and trainers were scrambling to get them fit.

As to running them older - I completely agree. But it has born proven that bones and tendons hold up better if they are introduced to work at a younger age and kept on top of.

 

[Snowfilly]

I question if we would have the same breakdowns if they were not ran until a bit older. Surely it would be no great hardship to racing if the races started for 4yos rather than 2yos.

I've also always wondered why we stick to thoroughbreds? I get they are the fastest, but from a punters perspective, seeing another breed race in is hardly going to change the atmosphere? Racing a breed with more bone may not be as fast, but we perhaps would not see the same level of breakdowns.

Yes. That's right. I want them to race 4yo welsh cobs

Joking aside, I wonder how the stats per number of starts compare to other racing breeds? There’s a fair bit of Arab racing in this country, America has quarter horses which seem to be mostly TB as well as paint horse racing, then there’s the various trotters and pacers around the world.

It is sickening to see, and I say that as someone who watches racing most weekends. I don’t recall seeing two deaths on the flat two weekends running before.

 

[Mightymax]

I 'think' I am correct in saying (please correct me if I'm wrong!) that in the USA the racehorses live and work at the racecourses. Because they work on the course itself always in an anti-clockwise direction, they can suffer from spiral stress fractures in their cannon bones. It has now become routine to X-ray the horses legs on a regular basis to check for damage, so they can be rested if necessary and allowed to heal. I understand the X-raying was brought in after too many horses were breaking legs.

 

[tristar]

horrible, too much too young.

and i do not believe for one minute there is any justification for racing 2 or 3 yr olds, bearing in mind they are pushed to the limit in a race.

i must admit to going in the direction of animal rights the more i see, well to some extent

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

There seems to be an increase in eventing deaths too - is performance being prioritised at the cost of "robustness?"

 

[equinerebel]

There seems to be an increase in eventing deaths too - is performance being prioritised at the cost of "robustness?"

Yes, imo. For eventing anyway. I don’t know much about racing

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

We were talking about breeds today. 20 years ago your average event horse was pretty sane and level headed. These days the majority are high blooded, suped up sports horses with brains on Red Bull.

We are breeding horses for a specific thing. And when you breed for 1 specific thing above all else other things fall by the way side.

In racing we sacrifice conformation for speed or stamina.

Mini Shetlands went through a phase a few years ago of breeding palominos and cremellos to the point where they were quite deformed. Thank god that trend has gone!

 

[Gamebird]

We then have so many flat breds being sent hurdling - surely they haven't been bred with that in mind? So are we bringing this issue into the jumps. Denman used to be a huge tank of a horse, you rarely see ones like him now. Take AR for instance - he looks so finely built, yet if he wasn't being successful on the flat, there seems to be more ex AOB horses going jumping - would his legs stand up to it?

Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, I have to take exception to the Denman comment - I met him in person several times and I can assure you that there are many (many!) horses in NH racing today that are as big (he wasn't massively tall) and chunky. THere are also small, slight horses with more flat breeding, but the big chaser type is definitely not a thing of the past. I also think that whilst they often have more bone, they put more stress on their tendons, and are not always sounder, so it's a bit swings and roundabouts.

Apologies for derailing a conversation about flat breeding!

 

[bonny]

I don’t agree with a lot of the breeding comments about racehorses on here but I do think the Irish Derby yesterday was a horrible race to watch. It’s very rare to see an injury like that on the flat and it’s always shocking to witness. Plus the lack of competition make some Irish races a farce, it’s a shame some English horses don’t have a go over there.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

There's plenty of big horses around on the jumps scene as well as the flat. On the flip side I ride a 2m4f chaser who has been nothing but a NH bred horse who is built like a show hack. So types for codes means absolutely nothing to be honest.

He is by Gold Well out of a Be My Native mare.

 

[tristar]

well i think there is some fabulous flat horses, think wow, conformation wise, that move beautifully and are efficient in their use of that movement, and some super stamps of jump racing horses

years ago eventers were very TB ish, and hate to say this but a lot were ridden by `very horsey folk`

the demise of of hunter breeding and the use of TB stallions of the track has changed the course of breeding and the quantity and type of horses available for hunting, eventing, general purpose.

30 yrs ago at a sale i would have the choice of many good types, with decent bloodlines, mainly bred by horsey people.

san antonio was the first horse on the flat i have seen fatally injured in a while, and whilst other sports have regular fatalities on course it all kind of adds up to making you have doubts moral wise as to where it will all end

i thought ryan moore was very concerned about the incident as he came off course, credit to him

 

[Gamebird]

I also apologise for making this point over and over, but it's worth remembering that ALL NH horses are sired by flat horses, for the simple reason that there are no stallions in NH racing (barring the odd extremely rare exception). Obviously there's a difference between a 2 miler and a sprinter, and plenty of the former are marketed specifically as 'NH sires' (eg. Yeats), but they are essentially all flat horses.

 

[reynold]

It's not just bone that is the issue. The old saying 'no foot no horse' is still true today.

For decades the amount of stallions being used with terrible feet, poor horn, collapsed heels, flat soles has been a disgrace. The progeny that inherit these feet struggle to stay sound either for racing or once they are out of racing.

I don't mind so much the smaller horses racing as they can be really good and bigger horses have their own soundness issues. What I'm finding unacceptable is the number of horses in the paddock commented on with hoof fillers in multiple feet.

Yesterday's race was an absolute obrian feast with them training 7 of the 9 runners and dominating the running of the race due to weight of numbers. It was a terrible accident and the poor jockey on the ground got a lot of kicking.

I would also like to see more UK trained runners going for races in Eire.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Part of the problem with British horses going to race in Ireland is the absolute total and utter pain in arse to get them there. Not only does it cost a fortune they also need blood tests and vet checks etc to go over with so, so, SO much paperwork! It's really not worth the hassle!

 

[Gamebird]

Part of the problem with British horses going to race in Ireland is the absolute total and utter pain in arse to get them there. Not only does it cost a fortune they also need blood tests and vet checks etc to go over with so, so, SO much paperwork! It's really not worth the hassle!

To be fair that works both ways though. I think the Irish trainers are just so used to doing it now they have it in a routine - look at someone like Shark Hanlon who has 3 or 4 UK runners most weeks. And the vets at UK racecourses are really good at getting the paperwork for the return journey done so that we can load up straight after racing to catch the ferry. They have also been able to get the paperwork changed if eg. horses have needed vet treatment or had a hard race, and the trainer doesn't want them to travel until the following day. It probably is expensive (not my department!!), but like all things I guess you have to weigh up your chances against the chance of offsetting it with prize-money.

I looked after the first Irish runner to come over here after Brexit, which ran at Market Rasen (!) in early January 2021. I know we were pretty uncertain how (or if!) it would work, and the Irish racing world was watching with interest to see if we got her over, raced and home. Once that first horse had tested the system the floodgates were opened.

 

[fankino04]

As to running them older - I completely agree. But it has born proven that bones and tendons hold up better if they are introduced to work at a younger age and kept on top of.

Interesting point, I had heard it on an American post and thought "surely not", but if it is a proven fact then when does that leave us in terms of the rights and wrongs of starting them so young? Is it just that they hold up better when worked / fittened up quicker and if we started them older but did fittening work over a longer period would be better ( all be it less profitable for those involved)?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

To be fair that works both ways though. I think the Irish trainers are just so used to doing it now they have it in a routine - look at someone like Shark Hanlon who has 3 or 4 UK runners most weeks. And the vets at UK racecourses are really good at getting the paperwork for the return journey done so that we can load up straight after racing to catch the ferry. They have also been able to get the paperwork changed if eg. horses have needed vet treatment or had a hard race, and the trainer doesn't want them to travel until the following day. It probably is expensive (not my department!!), but like all things I guess you have to weigh up your chances against the chance of offsetting it with prize-money.

I looked after the first Irish runner to come over here after Brexit, which ran at Market Rasen (!) in early January 2021. I know we were pretty uncertain how (or if!) it would work, and the Irish racing world was watching with interest to see if we got her over, raced and home. Once that first horse had tested the system the floodgates were opened.

Apparently it's not quite as annoying coming over here for them as us going there as they don't need coggins tests or things before heading over.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Interesting point, I had heard it on an American post and thought "surely not", but if it is a proven fact then when does that leave us in terms of the rights and wrongs of starting them so young? Is it just that they hold up better when worked / fittened up quicker and if we started them older but did fittening work over a longer period would be better ( all be it less profitable for those involved)?

I wrote my post in haste so didn't explain things properly. I am not suggesting racing them young is good for them at all. What I mean is that by doing bits and pieces of work - long lining, light trot and canter work for a few months at a time before having a break then repeating the process starting from mid-late 2yo year. It puts small bits of conditioning work into the tendons and bones building them up over a period of time rather than asking a "soft" 4 or 5yo to suddenly be backed and brought into work to race.

 

[fankino04]

I wrote my post in haste so didn't explain things properly. I am not suggesting racing them young is good for them at all. What I mean is that by doing bits and pieces of work - long lining, light trot and canter work for a few months at a time before having a break then repeating the process starting from mid-late 2yo year. It puts small bits of conditioning work into the tendons and bones building them up over a period of time rather than asking a "soft" 4 or 5yo to suddenly be backed and brought into work to race.

Thanks for the clarification it didn't seem right that working yearlings and 2 year olds so hard made their bones stronger but it wasn't the first time I'd heard it. So back to racing ( and equine sport in general) needs more patience to condition the horses for much longer in prep for a safe career.

 

[Orangehorse]

Interesting point, I had heard it on an American post and thought "surely not", but if it is a proven fact then when does that leave us in terms of the rights and wrongs of starting them so young? Is it just that they hold up better when worked / fittened up quicker and if we started them older but did fittening work over a longer period would be better ( all be it less profitable for those involved)?

There was a long term study in Australia.