Is anyone able to advise on dog behaviour?!

[EquestrianFairy]

I'll explain as much as I can:

Two dogs, dog A and dog B.
They have lived together for 5 years, dog A is the older of the two by about 3/4 years he is also the larger of the two. Both the same breed, both males, both neutered as young pups etc.

Last year or so there has been a change in behaviour in dog B, the younger dog. No outside influences have changed (ie. routines/people/housing all the same).
Dog A appears to be the top dog, if he is eating then dog B waits until he is finished, if they have treats then dog A will at times (if not watched) steal dog B's treat.

Over the last year dog B has started to snarl at Dog A for no apparent reason, infact, it will happen when dog A so much as breathes too loud (from a human perspective obviously). It happens if they are being fussed equally and it happens sometimes just because Dog A is somewhere where Dog B dislikes.
Dog A totally ignores this behaviour, not even a stare, totally ignores it.

Then it progressed to dog B barking and air snapping at Dog A when they are in bed, separate beds which were close together. So, we moved the beds so they cannot see each other and whilst this seems to have sorted this it does occasionally happen still.
- again, Dog A totally ignores this behaviour. At times he seems to just walk away and sit elsewhere, other times he will carry on as normal ignoring it and sometimes I catch him staring at dog B but not actually doing anything.

He has been to the vets for a general check up incase this behaviour is linked to pain or something- she gave him the all clear and some antibiotics as one anal gland was blocked but said it wouldn't have been related.
They are all wormed and flea'd regularly and walked every day with a good blast around the fields or forestry with balls and sticks.

Does anyone have any insight into what might be happening with dog B?

 

[JillA]

It sounds to me as though dog B is growing up into being top dog (for want of a better phrase) - he is regarding dog A as over the hill and no longer fit to be in control of the environment, so he is taking it on himslef to be in charge. Nowadays no-one really believes in a general dominance thing, dogs tend to domnate more over something they see as important to them, and it sounds as though it is territory which is the trigger in this case. Dr Ian Dunbar used to reckon you should never interfere with hierarchy issues, left to themselves the dogs will sort it out. If anything, you might speed up the process by reinforcing what is going on - i.e. making more of dog B, but it is a risky strategy, unless you are a dog you will never really understand.
He also used to say you don't have a fight unless there is blood and a vet visit, so I would say let them sort it out between themselves - might be a bit tense and noisy but nothing more hopefully, if dog A accepts the new relative positions when it matters.

 

[EquestrianFairy]

This was what I was assuming was happening but couldn't be sure.

There has been no fight yet although I don't believe that Dog A will let dog B take over, I feel that when the time comes a fight will take place as Dog B only airs his dislike- he never physically pushes it further.
Dog A is currently seeming as still in charge, if strangers enter the house dog B will retire to his bed and Dog A will be the one to bark and 'warn off' people he feels shouldn't be around etc.

 

[stormox]

doing the maths- theyv lived together for 5 years, and A is 3-4 years the elder. so dog A is about 9/10, and dog B is 5? seems to me that as dog A is now past his prime, dog B is thinking of taking over as 'leader'.
There might be a fight, but quite possibly dog A will relinquish his position peacefully, the behaviour of the younger dog showing him who's boss!
After all, in a 'pack' situation its not beneficial to actually KILL other members (theres no point in making your own team smaller!)

 

[EquestrianFairy]

I've had a read up on dog dominance and I think I am partly to blame, it says I should not get involved in things such as dog A taking toys from dog B etc.
There have been times I have removed the toy and given it back to dog B-
Maybe this is why! The dogs are getting confused and I am not helping the situation.

I will from now on not get involved and allow them to sort it out themselves.

 

[EquestrianFairy]

Stormox- that's right, dog A will be 9 soon and Dog B is now 5.

 

[Jools2345]

dog b is gradually takings the things of higher importance to him ie the bed area and other areas, every time he takes command of an area or situation he is taking a step closer to being top dog.

i have two dogs both elderly and of similar size and one bitch who is much larger and younger, non of mine take food from each other regardless of size/age/ranking and that is not my doing it is just how they are-the only time we have ever had a scrap is when 2 or more have arrived at a toy that has been thrown, and i think that is down to the adrenalin surge they must be experiencing. my smallest/eldest one will growl if the others get to close and he is trying to sleep and the others walk off and leave him.

my point is that mine don't seem to feel there is much worth fighting about but the bitch is in charge-she did not need to fight for that position though she was given it.

yours may be the same as one becomes stronger and the other older/weaker

 

[FinnishLapphund]

By your description, it sounds like dog A acts like a very good top dog, a truly selfsecure dogs doesn't need to lower themselves to accept every challenge, they show their superiority by ignoring minor faux pas.

I know that not everyone agrees about this, but personally, I decide who is top bitch in my home. I would never allow that it went so far that my bitches tried to settle it amongst themselves, one reason to that is that it can happen that the defeated dog doesn't accept the outcome, which can lead to more fights... (I can recall having heard about at least one owner that ended up dividing their house into two, one dog in one half and the other dog in the other half.)

Maybe I'm lazy, but I just don't want the hassle with worrying about if something is happening in their group dynamic or not. This is no criticism, you do what is right for you, but I could not tolerate that one of my bitches developed a habit to snarl at one of the other bitches, it might be natural to them, but it is not an acceptable behaviour in my home. Neither would I accept that one of my bitches tried to decide who should be allowed to sleep where, and where I should be allowed to put my dog beds. My home, I decide where the dog beds stands, and who is allowed to sleep there, period, challenge it, and you challenge me! To me, that is the same as that I don't let my bitches tell me if I'm allowed to trim their claws or not, forget that, I say when they need their claws trimmed, period.

I remember an episode many years ago, one of my bitches looked at me, then looked at my top bitch, then back to me and it was as if her eyes said to me "But, but look at her, she's old-ish, I'm younger and more fit, why is she top bitch?"
My answer was something like "Because my decision is divine, and mysterious, and you simply have to accept that even though you can't understand it, that is how it is."
I'm not saying that she understood my words, but she saw the respect that I showed my older bitch, saw how she before a walk had to wait at the door whilst the top bitch walked out first (first after me that is) etc., which told her my answer without words. I could see that she didn't understand, but she accepted that I had made it my decision, and she would never have dreamt about challenging me.

I feel that my bitches has been/are quite happy with accepting that it is my way or no way in this matter, they know that I decide who is my top bitch, and dogs usually likes it when they get clear messages, and knows what is expected from them.

However, as I said in the beginning, some dog owners prefers to let their dogs to sort these things out themselves, and you should do whatever works for you.

P.S. Another example, many years ago, I chose to ignore a minor unwanted behaviour, and instead, I lifted up my top bitch on my kitchen table ( ), and gave her a whole slice of cheese ( ), while telling her how important she was, before nonchalantly giving the two other stunned bitches on the floor a piece of cheese each, only to remind them about how much above them she was.

Strangely enough, even though I can be tough if it is needed , I also have several shirts with a print saying My dogs walk all over me .

 

[JillA]

Bitches are different though - there have been instances where bitches just could not get along and one had to be rehomed. It is to do with territory - to successfully raise a family you need space and resources, and even if that isn't an issue now, it is hard wired into many bitches, in confined spaces they cannot accept another bitch to dilute those resources with their broods. Dogs aren't as territorial but if you get it wrong, and boost the wrong one you can make matters worse.
I don't how you enforce your decision on your dogs FinnishLapphund or how much time they spend together without you to dictate to them, but I would have thought that you need to be on top of the situation at all times so that they don't have the chance of doing what their natures tell them to - challenge each other over resources, in particular space.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Agree with others...and one thing I would do is cut the shared toys/don't leave them lying around and feed them separately. It would be lovely to think that all dogs could share toys nicely but many do not and if they are not lying around to be stolen or scrapped over, then there won't be a problem.
The toys are yours, you paid for them, you give them (out on a walk, when training, when playing), you take them away.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Bitches are different though - there have been instances where bitches just could not get along and one had to be rehomed. It is to do with territory - to successfully raise a family you need space and resources, and even if that isn't an issue now, it is hard wired into many bitches, in confined spaces they cannot accept another bitch to dilute those resources with their broods. Dogs aren't as territorial but if you get it wrong, and boost the wrong one you can make matters worse.
I don't how you enforce your decision on your dogs FinnishLapphund or how much time they spend together without you to dictate to them, but I would have thought that you need to be on top of the situation at all times so that they don't have the chance of doing what their natures tell them to - challenge each other over resources, in particular space.

I've always heard that it is worst if two bitches begins to dislike each other, and that it is a little bit bigger risk for it to happen if you have two of the same breed, or two sisters, or if they're unspayed. That is why I like to nip things in the bud, and do my best to quickly make them understand that I don't let them try to steal food from each other, that I don't let them steal chewing bones from each other, that they don't need to steal chewing bones from each other because there is so plenty of them etc.

Maybe I am home more with my bitches compared to dog owners in general, I've never thought about that, and obviously I don't know what they do when I'm not home, but were they are and what they do when I leave or come home again, is usually: waiting for me to come home, keep an eye on what the cats are doing, sit and look at the world through a window, and maybe gnaw on a bone or two. So far, I've never noticed a hint of tension between them when I come home, neither with the ones I have now or those that sadly are dead.

This far, I've had 7 bitches, my first was a Norwegian Buhund, 2 a crossbreed, 3 a Smooth Collie, 4 a Norwegian Buhund, 5 a Finnish Lapphund, mother to 6 and 7 two Finnish Lapphund sisters (by the way, so far the "youngest" bitch I've spayed, was over 9 years old). The three Lapphunds are my current bitches, but I can't recall having had any real group dynamic problems, with any of my constellations.

I don't know, maybe my body language or something else, makes it clear that in my head I'm convinced that they will have to walk over my dead body, before I allow them to dictate to me who should be top bitch in my home? Perhaps it has something to do with that I try to set a good example, by trying to be calm and determined when I handle/do things with them, which perhaps makes them trust my decisions more? Maybe I'm good at spotting a suitable top bitch, making it easier for the other bitches to accept my decision?



I just do what is working for me and my bitches.