Is he too fat? To give more grazing or not?

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Elvis

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Yesterday I had the farrier out who told me Elvis was fat and I should start trying to shift some of his weight. He's currently out of work waiting for a visit from the physio but it won't be long until he's back in work hopefully. I don't think he's skinny, maybe a bit tubby but didn't think he was fat. Up until yesterday I was going to give him a bit more grazing (his field is strip grazed), but now I'm not so sure, his patch at the moment isn't great but not as bad as it could be, and the extra grazing isn't particularly lush. Anyway let me know what you think. I'm leaning towards leaving his paddock for now and letting him carry on chewing through the thistles! Silly Horse.

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Current field.

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Extra grazing

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Looking at the second photo he does have quite a belly :/

Think maybe where he was so skinny in the winter, I hadn't noticed him getting tubby
 
He has got a tummy but he isn't actually carrying fat over his neck & shoulder. Maybe a touch on his rump but not anything to be overly concerned about.

If his weight is stable I'd keep him on his current grazing personally, but maybe consider a slice of hay a day just to put some longer fibre in.
 
To be perfectly honest, if he was mine I'd want quite a lot of weight off him. No he doesn't have fat pads on his neck/shoulders... but that doesn't mean he's not overweight. And I certainly wouldn't be moving his fields or upping his feed, especially while out of work.

He is, however, a rather handsome chap with a beautiful shine to him :)
 
He doesn't look too bad but just a little tubby. I'd keep to current grazing and give a little token bit of hay morning and evening for his tum :)
 
I would keep him in the field he is. He looks on the fat side of Ok, just in a soft, unfit condition. It would be interesting to see a photo of him from behind.
 
Oh dear, feel awful now. He'll hopefully be back in work in the next two weeks. He's only fed a token feed of hi-fi and pony nuts twice a day to get supplements in him, and all the grass has been burnt off so fingers crossed he should start losing weight. I don't think it's helped him being surrounded by very over weight ponies, it's rather clouded my judgement of him, not that that is an excuse.

And thank you katikins, I think he's rather handsome too :)
 
I took my two to a clinic at my local feed shop, where an equine nutritionist came with a weigh bridge. My mare is not fit, and a bit like your boy, I thought she was fat, but they thought she was ok, just needed fittening.

Would it be worth changing to a low cal balancer instead of the feed?
 
He;s rapidly heading for overweight - grazing short stressed grass is very sugary so you're kind of between a rock and a hard place. Id personally put a track around that field he's in, and dot some bits of hay about for him to walk around to find, water at one end salt lick opposite etc so he moves a lot more over the day.

A decent mineral supp such as forage plus or pro hoof would also help as magnesium plays an important role in fat breaking down, just put it in a tiny feed of something lo cal and non molasses.
 
I think he is perfect the way his He doesnt need to be ant heavier or really to lose much especially as we move onto less nutritious grazing and winter just watch him in the Autumn flush.He has a big grass belly but isnt fat. He should lose that with work. His topline isnt a great fatty ridge
 
I wouldn't call him fat but I wouldn't want him any bigger either so maybe putting him on a better field is not a good idea. He's lovely by the way>
 
TigerTail said:
He;s rapidly heading for overweight - grazing short stressed grass is very sugary so you're kind of between a rock and a hard place. Id personally put a track around that field he's in, and dot some bits of hay about for him to walk around to find, water at one end salt lick opposite etc so he moves a lot more over the day.
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Excellent advice.

Try to keep in mind that the majority of pleasure horses in the UK are currently overweight (there have been a few vet studies over the last few years stating this, whereas owner surveys give much lower estimates of obesity - probably because the idea most people have of "normal" is actually "overweight" by veterinary definitions). This means that you can easily be told your horse is fine by instructors / fellow liveries, and your horse may be slim compared to others on your yard, or horses you see in the show ring - but none of this means your horse is the right weight. If you are concerned, and want impartial advice I would seek the advice of a vet, or read the "right weight" information published by WHW or the BHS.

(this isn't aimed at you individually, it may be more accurate to refer to "one's horse" but then I'd sound ridiculous :p)
 
Where I largely agree with you JFTD there is a huge difference between fit and fat a let down light built horse can look very fat if it has a great belly but it will largely speaking be under weight. A horse needs to carry a fair amount of fat in summer especially if it is a poor winter doer. The issue I have is seeing really skinny horses heading into winter that are practically eating the owner out of house and home and still come out of winter looking really poor if not emaciated. Far better regime in my mind is to allow the horse to gain a certain amount of weight over summer and then avoid the feeding over winter and allow nature to moderate the horse back to the norm. So personally all my natives look quite fat just now but by the end of winter they are very slim and can graze almost without restriction on spring grass with no little risk of Lamintis They stay on short grass year round only getting the standing grass from November However I cant advocate fat horses going into winter who are then fed to maintain that weight over winter as in the Spring they come out obese and on restricted grazing. Seems very foolish to me to have winter and summer grazing too unless it is just to make the grass access lower we have 4 ponies on four acres in winter they graze it all in summer they graze about half of it the rest is fogage and used instead of hay late autumn and winter. I probably use less than 30 bales of hay between xmas and may for all four ponies using the grass this way they are slim in winter tubby in summer but very healthy and without metabolic issues so far eldest is 18. This is natures way and as long as winter loss isnt excessive works well. I do like to see fit and well ponies grazing a field or track depending on health issues it must be a very miserable existence for those humungous animals fed to the hilt in winter and muzzled all summer. Tracks are great but this year out track was full of ragwort and before we got ahead of it the grass was too long for them so it is standing forage now a lot of ponies on a little grass is in my view the best means of control. I am of course aided by the fact that my fields are sandy and dont degenerate into a sea of mud however even those that do can still be used effectively as the mud dries and the grass returns the fact the animals are walking on it gets rid of ruts and dangerous footing. So OP if your lovely horse is a very bad winter doer please leave his weight as it is and let him lose it over winter yoyo dieting a horse is really bad for them and has a huge part in all the metabolic issues horses have. It isnt being too fat that is the problem it is being obese year round that is the problem.
There seems to be two camps those that think it is ok to have skinny
/sick looking horse and a bigger group that dont see the excessive weight their horses are carrying what is needed is common ground of slim and fit horses that gain and lose according to the seasons as nature intended
 
Thank you everyone for your comments, however everything is all change now... Today I came to find him out of his field, with a very bad wound to his fetlock joint, he had tried to jump out (never done this before) and caught the electric tape round his fetlock, vet has been and fingers crossed no damage to tendons, but he has a very big bandage on, is on a load of bute and antibiotics and will be put in a cast next week, so he's on box rest for at least the next 3 weeks. So what can I do to make sure he doesn't gain any weight? He'll have to stay on 2 feeds a day to administer the medicine, and since he has 2 supplements (vet recommended) and 2 different medicines he needs about a 1/4 of Hi-fi and nuts to absorb all that. He is on soaked hay, but he's a big guy (17hh) so gets through a lot. I've always floor fed, but should I be putting his hay in a small holed hay net to slow him down? Any advice much appreciated.
 
Oh so sorry to hear he has hurt himself
I had a pony on box rest and found the best way to keep her eating (she wont eat wet soaked hay) was a tub trug of hi fi light She had her damped a tiny bit by steaming it to stop her choking but she didnt like it and ate it only when she was hungry. I would bed him on oat or barley straw and just give the hay as usual Messy but to be honest I wouldnt worry too much about him eating his bed. Just make sure he has loads of very wet feeds to keep the moisture level in his gut high, salt to keep him drinking actually add it too feeds not a salt lick You could simply put oat straw with his hay in a corner and not feed extra hay at all if you dont want to bed on straw. If he is hungry or his gut needs it he will eat it eventually even if he doesnt particularly like it. You can get unmolassed hifi now.

Regime for my box rested pony after an accident was
6am stubbs scoop of speedibeet soaked with a mug of grass nuts for at least 15 minutes, drugs, section of hay
10am stubbs scoop alfa oil with a mug of speedibeet soaked salt and brewers yeast
2pm hay, soaked feed as per morning
6pm hay soaked feed as per 10am
10pm a tub trug of hifi and hay

She was bedded on straw and was a good doing pony who came of this regime looking brilliant. Of course if you work it wont be so easy to get the four feeds in
Speedibeet is laxative so prevents the gut slowing down
Only pony I have ever had that got colic was a broodie in for weaning after a 6 months on grass the cahnge to the dry diet of hay caused a blockage. She was fine but I never change things so much anymore as long as the food is very wet but not sloppy He should be ok
If he drops weight add a little micronised linseed
Sorry forgot to add he will need a good vitamin and mineral supplement or bbalancer too
 
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Oh no, what a nightmare. Hope he gets better quickly.

I disagree with JFTD and Tigertail, he is not very fat, he is soft. My horse is in a similar condition. As I mentioned, she was weighed by a nutritionalist and weight scored, and they put her as just verging on a 3. They said she needed more work and muscle, but was not carrying much fat - no crest, no fat pads, no channel on the bottom etc. My horse is not doing enough work, something I struggle with due to my job, and had just come back from a month off due to a wire injury, so was definitely soft. If you're used to seeing fit horses, a soft horse will look kind of fat, but if you put it next to a genuinely fat horse it would look different... I'm not saying you don't need to keep an eye out, as fat is an easy step from soft, and I wouldn't put it on more grazing, just that its not fat.
 
windand rain said:
a let down light built horse can look very fat if it has a great belly but it will largely speaking be under weight. A horse needs to carry a fair amount of fat in summer especially if it is a poor winter doer.

The issue I have is seeing really skinny horses heading into winter that are practically eating the owner out of house and home and still come out of winter looking really poor if not emaciated.
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I don't think this horse is "largely speaking underweight". I don't think it is in any aspect "underweight" - all points look to be a 3, except the stomach area which is at least a 4 - giving an overall condition score on the wrong side of 3. I think it is very easy to let a horse's weight spiral out of control and it is much easier to tackle it while it is still within hitting distance of a decent score. I think it's also worth bearing in mind that there are potentially several months of good grass left, including the autumn flush, when the laminitis risk for overweight horses is very high.

I don't really approve with allowing a horse's weight to fluctuate out of control with the seasons - far better to maintain a stable and appropriate weight in so far as is possible. I don't mean to accuse anyone personally, but I tend to find that attitude to be a rather lazy excuse not to put the effort in to keep the horse at a relatively stable weight.

I would also point out that a condition score of 2 is perfectly acceptable in a veterinary sense, but is regularly defined as too skinny on here. I have no aversion to seeing a few ribs and it really doesn't constitute a "sick looking" horse to me. I think an overweight animal looks far sicker - and any period of time spent overweight is more likely to have long term negative effects than the same period of time spent relatively underweight. Now I have two horses who are largely out of work (one youngster, one veteran) so I'm used to seeing unfit animals and I condition score mine relative to their lack of muscle. But with an unfit horse, it is just as important (if not more so) to minimise the amount of force on their joints as it is with a fit horse. Certainly my vet agrees and often laughs when I say I think my old cob looks a little light and tells me to stop worrying - he's fine, and better on the light side than the heavy one!

I'd also like to add that I didn't say he was "very fat". I said he was overweight - I'd guess at a condition score between 3.25 and 3.5. In my opinion, he would benefit from a diet - but not starvation - he doesn't have masses to lose, but it's easier to rectify that now.


OP, I'm sorry your chap has hurt himself and I hope he recovers speedily.
 
JFTD said:
I don't really approve with allowing a horse's weight to fluctuate out of control with the seasons - far better to maintain a stable and appropriate weight in so far as is possible. I don't mean to accuse anyone personally, but I tend to find that attitude to be a rather lazy excuse not to put the effort in to keep the horse at a relatively stable weight.

.
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In the ''natural'' state horses would gain weight in summer and lose it over the winter period when they use up fat reserves keeping warm.....hence why over-rugging is an issue.....keeps the ******* fat through winter....
If you think about it, it is unnatural for a horse to stay the same weight all year round surely.

Id rather let mine drop some weight ( not condition) over winter so I don't have to starve them all summer.....
 
JFTD said:
I don't really approve with allowing a horse's weight to fluctuate out of control with the seasons - far better to maintain a stable and appropriate weight in so far as is possible. I don't mean to accuse anyone personally, but I tend to find that attitude to be a rather lazy excuse not to put the effort in to keep the horse at a relatively stable weight.
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Interesting that you pick up on this. I read an in-depth study done on this very thing a year or so ago (wish I could find the link as I think you'd be interested in it), actually it was probably longer than that, you know how time flies! Anyhow it gave incredibly valid reasons for allowing the depletion and accumulation of weight distribution at periods throughout the year. To basically summarise, it said that so many of these new fangled conditions that horses are contracting these days was down to the very fact that horses are remaining the same weight throughout and that it was actually harmful to the horse to consistently keep them at stable weights. I will try to have a dig around and see if I can find it over the next few days, if you'd be interested. I don't hold out much hope though and I truly wish I could remember where about I saw it.
 
I would leave him in current field because whilst he's not grossly overweight I wouldn't want him to put more on. Once he's back in work his tummy should lift and his muscles tone up more.

Just read that he's injured himself so sorry to hear that. You could try ad lib fibre blocks while he's on box rest, the manufacturer is based in Scotland although can't remember name at moment.
If I remember I'll post a link.
 
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Spring Feather said:
Interesting that you pick up on this. I read an in-depth study done on this very thing a year or so ago (wish I could find the link as I think you'd be interested in it), actually it was probably longer than that, you know how time flies! Anyhow it gave incredibly valid reasons for allowing the depletion and accumulation of weight distribution at periods throughout the year. To basically summarise, it said that so many of these new fangled conditions that horses are contracting these days was down to the very fact that horses are remaining the same weight throughout and that it was actually harmful to the horse to consistently keep them at stable weights. I will try to have a dig around and see if I can find it over the next few days, if you'd be interested. I don't hold out much hope though and I truly wish I could remember where about I saw it.
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I think I read the same one...or one along the same lines.
I think the gist was it helps to avoid insulin resistance.....
 
Hippona said:
In the ''natural'' state horses would gain weight in summer and lose it over the winter period when they use up fat reserves keeping warm.....hence why over-rugging is an issue.....keeps the ******* fat through winter....
If you think about it, it is unnatural for a horse to stay the same weight all year round surely.

Id rather let mine drop some weight ( not condition) over winter so I don't have to starve them all summer.....
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Yes, this is true to an extent... Unfortunately large amounts of how we keep horses are unnatural, and I think some concession has to be made for that. I certainly wouldn't advocate starving a horse all summer, but I also don't think it is healthy (or natural) to fluctuate horses between very good grazing and poor grazing (i.e. taking a horse off a grazed field and onto a fully grown field). That's also not a natural state of affairs. Also, wild horses are rarely at a "high" condition score, even in the height of summer. This argument holds better water when the horse is allowed to get "thin" in winter and return to "good" in summer. It is not an excuse for a horse to get "fat" in summer and return to "normal" in winter.

Also, wild horses are never limited in exercise the way an out of work domestic horse is, meaning that they are less likely to become very overweight, and tend to have fewer metabolic issues.

For what it's worth, I have no aversions to a horse dropping condition in winter and regaining in summer - though it's not very practical if it's a riding animal. It's the opposite idea that windandrain suggested which I think is really very dangerous.

Spring Feather said:
Interesting that you pick up on this. I read an in-depth study done on this very thing a year or so ago (wish I could find the link as I think you'd be interested in it), actually it was probably longer than that, you know how time flies! Anyhow it gave incredibly valid reasons for allowing the depletion and accumulation of weight distribution at periods throughout the year. To basically summarise, it said that so many of these new fangled conditions that horses are contracting these days was down to the very fact that horses are remaining the same weight throughout and that it was actually harmful to the horse to consistently keep them at stable weights. I will try to have a dig around and see if I can find it over the next few days, if you'd be interested. I don't hold out much hope though and I truly wish I could remember where about I saw it.
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Actually, it's been linked on here before and I've read it. I recall being rather underwhelmed by some of their arguments, although the basic premise is logical. The major failing point in their arguments was that they assumed that the horse was kept on the fat side, rather than the lean side - presuming that the horse was maintained at a higher than optimal condition. Also, I feel that their argument was slightly different from the one I was dismissing, as I describe above (though wasn't very clear in the previous reply!) :)
 
Hippona said:
Ah well.

We'll have to agree to disagree.... ;)
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Actually, we don't have to - I agree that it' acceptable to allow a horse to drop condition in winter, which is what you said you did - on that side we agree to agree. I allow my out of work 2 to drop weight in winter too. I don't encourage Fergs to because I aim for him never to have much to lose, because he's always in work and I never want to be jumping / galloping him carrying excess weight.

It's the idea of allowing a horse to become fat in summer so it returns to normal by the end of winter I don't approve of. If you disagree there, I can agree to disagree there :p
 
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