Is high fibre diet more fattening than hay?

muff747

muff747

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Sorry this is a bit long, but I am even more confused and need some clarification and maybe a bit of confidence back :o
I have been giving a small feed to my mini mare to hide supplements. It equates in total to just about covering the bottom of a small feed bucket. I find I need to give here a certain amount otherwise she leaves it because the supps aren't diluted enough.
I feed her Rowan and Barbery Soft n Soak which is soya hulls and is very low sugar/starch with salt and Equimins Meta Balance. MB has been formulated from the Equimins Advance Concentrate Vits and Mins in colaboration with a student of Dr Eleanor Kellon and is recommended on here and Phoenix for any horse but particularly for barefooters or laminitics due to its high level of magnesium and Vit E.
I've been adding half a cup of micronised linseed also because I had read either on here or the Phoenix barefoot forum or the Yahoo EC/IR forum that some think the ML is a good all round addative, even for laminitics and cushings as it seems to regulate or harmonise the bodily functions.
I do realise given in quantity it could be fattening but can this type and amount of feed be fattening if given instead of soaked hay?
I'm asking for more opinions as I recently posted about having to pull her off grass on Monday as she was very pottery and hot feet and despite wearing a muzzle 24/7 - apart from one day when a new pony was introduced to her field about five days before. I couldn't understand why she had gone footy when I had been so careful and I thought she didn't have any extra weight on her, but some said she looked a little overweight and that she was getting too much feed - I am just trying to understand and find out if I am doing things wrong:confused:.
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bodyshape2Aug.jpg
[/URL][/IMG]This is how she is after a few days off (muzzled) grass.
 
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Which soft n soak are you feeding? There are 4 different types and the calorie content is very different between them. If its the Readyfibre mash then I would say a good choice, any of the other 3 are quite high in calories so wont help with weight control.
Readyfibre has 7.5MJ/DE per kilo as compared to meadow hay which can have anything from 7 - 11 MJ/DE per Kg, it varies a lot in hay, so you cant know without testing.
Soaking hay removes some sugars and therefore calories, but again this is very variable, with some hays losing a lot more sugar than others during the soaking process and over various times.
At least with a bagged feed you can be sure of exactly what you pony is getting regarding sugar and calories.
I would cut down on the linseed too, I only feed my 15hh cob about 1/4 cup a day, so 1/2 cup for a mini sounds a bit too much to me.
Saying that, don't think she looks overweight though, but hard to tell from pictures. Hope this helps :)
 
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Thanks HB, yes it is the RFM and the hay was cut late August.
I'm still puzzled how she became so pottery but I have been slowly reintroducing her to grass and so far her feet are cold on bringing her in and I'll not be leaving her out 24/7 even though she will be muzzled at all times on grass!
 
Have you been on the safegrass.org website? Lots of interesting stuff on there about grass sugars and how sensitive some horses can be.
Have you owned the pony for long? I see from the first pic that she has a slight dip after her withers and before her crest and although she doesn't look 'cresty' now, some people think that that dip can be a possible sign of a susceptibility to laminitis and/or EMS.
Was she overweight when you had her or has she always been fairly slim and has she any history of laminitis in the past?
Sorry if you said all this in your first post, missed that one.
 
Thanks HB
Here's the link to my previous thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?626688-Laminitis-how-can-this-have-happened
I've had her since April but she was already here at my yard loaned by someone else for approx two years.
She did get very fat last summer with a big hard crest and fat pads but her then loaner didn't think she had had lami. Since I've had her others said they could see she was very pottery with it at the time. I vaguely remember she was box rested for a few days and then turned out with a muzzle on 24/7 - but that was the only management of her weight. She lost it all over winter and when I took her on she was a little under but I have been very careful since then to not let her get anywhere near that level again. That's why I'm dismayed about this little bout.
I'm interested to hear about the "dip" theory, and also the symptoms do look like IR/EMS except she has no crest or fat pads anywhere. The timing with lack of work due to injury points to EMS also, so is it possible that she could be EMS even without any fat pads or crest?
 
A soaked short feed is more quickly eaten that a similar weight of hay, so will be 'more fattening'. I didn't comment on the other thread because I have no experience of minis but I did think that you were feeding such a small horse rather a lot of feed.
 
Sometimes horses on a high fibre/forage diet put on weight because their gut is working better and they are getting more nutrition. Having said that whenever grass is in the equation with a small fibre based feed, I would say the grass is much more likely candidate for weight gain.
I think your bucket feed sounds fine myself, but I would consider looking at giving a bit more vitamin E and possibly magnesium, I believe you can give plus 2000/3000iu vit E daily in laminitis.
 
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Hi Amandap
Is that on top of that which is in the MetaBalance, and do you think she has too much weight on now? I wondered if - the only other thing that might be causing the hot feet could be the alfalfa in the Top Spec Lite but it is mixed with straw and she just has one small handful. I have tried giving less feed but she won't eat it as the powder isn't hidden enough. O and I also have to give her a calmer if she has to be kept in so she doesn't try to climb out over the door!:eek:
For the benefit of others who are interested the analysis for MB :-
Feeding Directions: When feeding for the first time, introduce slowly
over a period of 10 -15 days. Ponies: 30-40 grams per day.
Horses: 50 - 60 grams per day, Larger horses: 80 – 90 grams per day
Foals from two weeks onwards: 10 grams per day.
INGREDIENTS: Ground micronized linseed, Dicalcium Phosphate Limestone Flour, Vitamins, Minerals, Trace elements, Organically bound minerals, Saccharomyces cerivisae, probiotics and prebiotics
Analysis:
Oil 7.7%
Protein 14.4%
Fibre 3.8%
Ash 20.9%
Vitamin A 625,000 iu/kg
Vitamin D3 125,000 iu/kg
Vitamin E 17000 iu/kg
Vitamin B1 1000 mg/kg
Vitamin B2 1000 mg/kg
Vitamin B6 800 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 3.25 mg/kg
Biotin 175 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid 1300 mg/kg
Choline 15,000 mg/kg
Nicotinic acid 2100 mg/kg
Zinc Methionate 15000 mg/kg
Calcium 4.5%
Phosphorus 3.465%
Sodium 5%
Magnesium 42.5 g/kg
Folic Acid 500 mg/kg
Vitamin K 1225 mg/kg
Zinc 13280 mg/kg
Lysine 166 g/kg
Copper 3325 mg/kg
Cobalt 125 mg/kg
Iodine 85 mg/kg
Selenium 30 mg/kg
Manganese 5000 mg/kg
Methionine 15,000 mg/kg
Prebiotics 10,000 mg/kg

Organic Minerals bound to a yeast cream: Magnesium 5000 mg/kg
Zinc 750 mg/ kg , Copper 500 mg/kg , Chromium 5000 mg/kg
Manganese 1000 mg/kg, Cobalt 1250 mg/kg, Selenium 15 mg/kg
Probiotics: Lactobacillus Acidophilus & Bifidobacterium 10 billion cfu/g
Sacccharomycyces Cerivisae 20 billion cfu/g
 
muff747 said:
Hi Amandap
Is that on top of that which is in the MetaBalance, and do you think she has too much weight on now? I wondered if - the only other thing that might be causing the hot feet could be the alfalfa in the Top Spec Lite but it is mixed with straw and she just has one small handful. I have tried giving less feed but she won't eat it as the powder isn't hidden enough. O and I also have to give her a calmer if she has to be kept in so she doesn't try to climb out over the door!:eek:
For the benefit of others who are interested the analysis for MB :-
Feeding Directions: When feeding for the first time, introduce slowly
over a period of 10 -15 days. Ponies: 30-40 grams per day.
Horses: 50 - 60 grams per day, Larger horses: 80 – 90 grams per day
Foals from two weeks onwards: 10 grams per day.
INGREDIENTS: Ground micronized linseed, Dicalcium Phosphate Limestone Flour, Vitamins, Minerals, Trace elements, Organically bound minerals, Saccharomyces cerivisae, probiotics and prebiotics
Analysis:
Oil 7.7%
Protein 14.4%
Fibre 3.8%
Ash 20.9%
Vitamin A 625,000 iu/kg
Vitamin D3 125,000 iu/kg
Vitamin E 17000 iu/kg
Vitamin B1 1000 mg/kg
Vitamin B2 1000 mg/kg
Vitamin B6 800 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 3.25 mg/kg
Biotin 175 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid 1300 mg/kg
Choline 15,000 mg/kg
Nicotinic acid 2100 mg/kg
Zinc Methionate 15000 mg/kg
Calcium 4.5%
Phosphorus 3.465%
Sodium 5%
Magnesium 42.5 g/kg
Folic Acid 500 mg/kg
Vitamin K 1225 mg/kg
Zinc 13280 mg/kg
Lysine 166 g/kg
Copper 3325 mg/kg
Cobalt 125 mg/kg
Iodine 85 mg/kg
Selenium 30 mg/kg
Manganese 5000 mg/kg
Methionine 15,000 mg/kg
Prebiotics 10,000 mg/kg

Organic Minerals bound to a yeast cream: Magnesium 5000 mg/kg
Zinc 750 mg/ kg , Copper 500 mg/kg , Chromium 5000 mg/kg
Manganese 1000 mg/kg, Cobalt 1250 mg/kg, Selenium 15 mg/kg
Probiotics: Lactobacillus Acidophilus & Bifidobacterium 10 billion cfu/g
Sacccharomycyces Cerivisae 20 billion cfu/g
Click to expand...
I'm no maths or diet expert but assuming you give 50 gms she will be getting (by my poor maths lol) about 850 iu vitamin e daily.
I would consider emailing Sarah at Forage Plus or asking a diet expert/dietitian about adding more e and if they can recommend any more changes that might help. You could switch to the ECIR emergency diet for a short period and see her response and then introduce the metabalance.

Will she eat Fast fibre or unmolassed beet instead of the TS to rule alfalfa out? I do think the field may well have been the main problem but other things of course could contribute and I am only guessing. Could she go in the paddock/school with soaked hay and be more settled?

I didn't think she was really overweight myself from the pics. x
 
muff747 said:
Thanks HB
Here's the link to my previous thread http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?626688-Laminitis-how-can-this-have-happened
I've had her since April but she was already here at my yard loaned by someone else for approx two years.
She did get very fat last summer with a big hard crest and fat pads but her then loaner didn't think she had had lami. Since I've had her others said they could see she was very pottery with it at the time. I vaguely remember she was box rested for a few days and then turned out with a muzzle on 24/7 - but that was the only management of her weight. She lost it all over winter and when I took her on she was a little under but I have been very careful since then to not let her get anywhere near that level again. That's why I'm dismayed about this little bout.
I'm interested to hear about the "dip" theory, and also the symptoms do look like IR/EMS except she has no crest or fat pads anywhere. The timing with lack of work due to injury points to EMS also, so is it possible that she could be EMS even without any fat pads or crest?
Click to expand...

I believe the dip theory relates to the very good correlation between storing fat on the crest and the likelyhood of laminitis. Horses which store fat on the crest even when not really fat anywhere else can present with this little dip.
If she was very overweight before as well, and had a big, hard crest, they are very hard to get rid of entirely even when the horse is slim.
This link makes interesting reading https://share.ehs.uen.org/sites/default/files/Laminitis risk.pdf.
It is also possible for a slim horse to have IR/EMS especially since she has been very overweight in the past.

My own horse has also been very overweight, he's lost 90kg over the last year, but he never had a crest, fat quarters and slabs of fat on back and shoulders, but no crest, and he has never had laminitis.
Anyway, good luck with her, and why can't feed companies just give an analysis of their supplements as fed, be so much easier, kudos to Amandap for working it out!! :)
 
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