Is it ever OK to work a horse behind the vertical?

[not_with_it]

Discuss.

Lots of people always say that a horse should never be worked behind the vertical although lots of pro riders do. (I'm not talking rolkur, more deep and round) I'm not saying that it is OK because the pros do it but I'm asking what peoples thoughts are and reasoning behind it.

So my opinion. I think it is OK to work a horse deep and round in the right circumstances.
For instance, at times my mare can be truculant. She isnt in any pain before anyone starts although she can sometimes be a bit stiff. When she is in one of her moods then I have to work her slightly overbent to get the submission I want otherwise she will just fight. It is simply a case of she doesnt want to work properly as its hard work. She doesnt like using her back end or the base of her neck and so riding her deep and round means she is stretching over her back and using herself.
When I ask her to come up she does and does some super work.

So what are your thoughts?

 

[classicalfan]

Unfortunately this line of thinking is why so many horses end up with us - mostly with sacral lumbar damage. Nuff said.

 

[not_with_it]

Unfortunately this line of thinking is why so many horses end up with us - mostly with sacral lumbar damage. Nuff said.

Would you care to expand on that?

My horse has been with me for 10 years and the only injury she had was field related.

How about some of the top horses that have been ridden deep and round? Carl Hesters horses and the Eilbergs horses. I have seen many of them being worked like this and they are top athletes.

 

[classicalfan]

Over-stretching of the nuchal ligament, for one. If you photograph these horses in trot you will see it isn't two-time as they are unable to use their back correctly. Said pro's horses are always solid through the back. We work with pro horses so know the damage it causes.
Making a horse work like this also affects its breathing - it can't, which is why so much froth is often produced.
Damage between 2nd and 3rd vetebrae where the horse 'breaks', often permanent.
The list goes on and on. If they weren't worked like this they might remain top athletes for a bit longer.

 

[Degan]

To me btv means when the horse is evaiding or resisting the contact (for whatever reason) so for this horse to continue in this way (tense- with head and neck up but btv) is wrong.

However for a horse to be accepting and working comfortably into the contact (seeking for it almost) in this low deep frame is acceptable as long as there is No tension or forced/held; then this can be benefical for encouraging them to work across their backs and relax - especially for tense and flighty horses.

However this is just my opinion and I'm sure there are other views on this.

 

[not_with_it]

However for a horse to be accepting and working comfortably into the contact (seeking for it almost) in this low deep frame is acceptable as long as there is No tension or forced/held; then this can be benefical for encouraging them to work across their backs and relax - especially for tense and flighty horses.

However this is just my opinion and I'm sure there are other views on this.

I'm inclined to agree with this. I think it can be beneficial so long as the horse isnt forced into this outline. But I almost feel that this is a subject which people feel they cant talk about for fear of getting shot down. Hence why I am interested to hear both sides of the arguement.

 

[cptrayes]

Over-stretching of the nuchal ligament, for one. If you photograph these horses in trot you will see it isn't two-time as they are unable to use their back correctly. Said pro's horses are always solid through the back. We work with pro horses so know the damage it causes.
Making a horse work like this also affects its breathing - it can't, which is why so much froth is often produced.
Damage between 2nd and 3rd vetebrae where the horse 'breaks', often permanent.
The list goes on and on. If they weren't worked like this they might remain top athletes for a bit longer.

Oh for goodness sake! Most of the top riders in the world ride their horses behind the verticle either some of or a lot of the time.

My friend is taught by a top UK trainer and her horse is started on the lunge on side reins behind the verticle every single training session. That person's trainees win at international level all the time and their horses have long competitive lives.

To the OP, yes of course it is acceptable at times. If you horse has set like a plank and the only way you can free his back is to work him overbent, then it's OK for a while. If your horse is so high spirited on a windy day that he's threatening to buck you off then of course it's OK to do it to keep you safe. If your horse is backing off the contact and the only way you can keep him on it is to send him on overbent, then of course it's OK to do it for a while if at the end of a few minutes he decides that it would be easier or more comfortable to stretch out forwards. ETC. It's a valid technique in the training book. Blanket condemnation of working behind the verticle is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

 

[icestationzebra]

I think it is yes - in training for short periods of time - just as it's ok for them to trot or canter round with their nose on the floor or up into a more advanced outline. I am working towards my horse working into a soft poll high outline but in order to give her the strength and athleticism to get there she is worked in varying outlines. I have regular lessons with a List 2 judge and he is very happy with our training

 

[woodlandswow]

whilst working this summer for a top eventing producer, he said they school all their horses a bit beyond the verticle so when they go out and compete they will always come up a bit - it was not drasstically behind and i dont see too much harm in this as long as its not too much of a constant thing

 

[B-B]

If its just behind the bit and the quarters are in Africa then no.

It is better to focus on the whole horse and not just the head....so if the horse is working from behind, stepping through, working over a stretched and swinging back and stretching working to the contact and maintaining the contact, as well as the rhythm, balance and straightness, then yes.

 

[not_with_it]

Thanks for the response people. I am confident in my training but felt that it was a bit of a taboo subject.

I feel that as long as you know how to bring the horse back up then it is fine to ride this way. But I have seen a lot of people who put them deep and then just pull to get the horse back up, hence the horse just curling and breaking in the neck.

 

[nikkimariet]

I work Bruce behind the vertical for warming up, by which I mean low, deep and round. Not high, tight and overbent.

For him, it's 100% beneficial because it stretches the muscles across the withers and just behind his poll - which is where he holds the a lot of tension in his body (always has been, physio agrees).

I am an avid believer of long and low for warming up, although Bruce is warmed up a lot deeper than I would deem necessary for many others purely to eliminate the tension. With him swinging and soft, his back is relaxed. He actively seeks the contact and works up and into it - not resisting/evading and I'm not holding him there.

Warming him up BTV allows him to be through, engaged and supple when I do pick him up into a 'correct' outline

 

[MegaBeast]

I work Bruce behind the vertical for warming up, by which I mean low, deep and round. Not high, tight and overbent.

I think this is key myself.

 

[dominobrown]

Working long, low and round is different I would say. Normally (well I do) work on long rein when doing this, and hopefully you can feel the horse *lift* its back. Otherwise I wouldn't work a horse overbent (intentionally!) as its an annoying habit and a way of avoiding working properly.

 

[charlie76]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it for short periods if the horse is evading the aids. Can't imagine a horse with its head stuck out or up like a plank is doing itself any more favours than one that is btv for a short period.
Would agree that You Would be better to have the horse deep and round rather than up and tight otherwise it defeats the object.
Make sure the hind legs stay active as well.
The way we develop balance and muscle is to work the horse for short periods in various different frames.
In an ideal world all horses would be perfectly well behaved in a perfect outline but who lives in an ideal world?!

 

[millitiger]

I will put my head above the parapet and say, no, I don't think it is ever acceptable to work a horse BTV on purpose.

You can stretch a horse with its nose on the floor, without it coming BTV and that is what I aim for with a stretch. You can work deep and round without BTV as well.

Obviously sometimes a horse will drop BTV, more with young or green horses but I believe it should be corrected immediately.

People saying round and deep and active is better than hollow and tight are arguing a moot point imo- there is a happy medium and to me, BTV and hollow should be treated the same and we should try to eliminate them both.

Obviously if your horse is trying to pi$$ off with you or buck you off you may use BTV as a means of control but I don't really class that as schooling, so again, a bit of a moot point!

 

[FrodoBeutlin]

Obviously sometimes a horse will drop BTV, more with young or green horses but I believe it should be corrected immediately.

People saying round and deep and active is better than hollow and tight are arguing a moot point imo- there is a happy medium and to me, BTV and hollow should be treated the same and we should try to eliminate them both.

Obviously if your horse is trying to pi$$ off with you or buck you off you may use BTV as a means of control but I don't really class that as schooling, so again, a bit of a moot point!

This is 100% what my trainer would say!

 

[sbloom]

I will put my head above the parapet and say, no, I don't think it is ever acceptable to work a horse BTV on purpose.

You can stretch a horse with its nose on the floor, without it coming BTV and that is what I aim for with a stretch. You can work deep and round without BTV as well.

Obviously sometimes a horse will drop BTV, more with young or green horses but I believe it should be corrected immediately.

People saying round and deep and active is better than hollow and tight are arguing a moot point imo- there is a happy medium and to me, BTV and hollow should be treated the same and we should try to eliminate them both.

Obviously if your horse is trying to pi$$ off with you or buck you off you may use BTV as a means of control but I don't really class that as schooling, so again, a bit of a moot point!

I personally agree, and rode like this when I had a horse. Add to this the fact that some horses, once trained to go btv, may use it as an evasion and it is the HARDEST thing to correct. The horse should always seek to take the contact forwards and out, and the aim should always be poll the highest point - not just for advanced work, but a longer lower outline for lower level horses still allows for the poll to be higher than any other part of the neck.

I was converted to this philosphy after my horse had SI issues and my Bowen therapist forbid any more deep work, and then after seeing Erik Herbermann clinics and seeing a totally different system of work.

Just because lots of top riders do it, and it wins, doesn't mean I have to do it.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

"You can work deep and round without BTV as well"................


no you cant, you cant have a horse deep and round and not behind the contact, but in order to be deep and round the horse must be BTV! the neck cannot be deep and round and yet the nose IFV, physical impossibility................unless you mean long and low and not deep and round?

and just to pick up on NMT's post..................timely post as we were only discussing this last night-when i competed Bruce i found i had to put him LDR in order to have him supple and swinging..................perhaps the last few weeks we havent been strict enough about this and he has been fairly impossible to get working properly.................so the last week/10 days we have really been on the ball and made sure he has worked LDR in walk, trot and canter and is 100% swinging in that position and OMG-different horse. for me the proof is in the pudding and he is now taking a contact, swinging over his back and is much happier in himself.

 

[GinaGem]

Just because lots of top riders do it, and it wins, doesn't mean I have to do it.

This is how i think too. I strive not to ride behind the vertical and am rather uncomfortable with it. Not saying it doesn't happen at times but i certainly won't ask for it.

 

[flippa_t]

OK sorry to be dim but "LDR"? Sure its very obvious but brain not working yet to work out abbreviations!

 

[sbloom]

It is the Anky school of dressage term for deep work - "low deep round". It was used a lot when the FEI were looking into Rolkur, and decided in their wisdom that they were very different things. Even though they warned other riders against utilising their methods.

 

[millitiger]

"You can work deep and round without BTV as well"................


no you cant, you cant have a horse deep and round and not behind the contact, but in order to be deep and round the horse must be BTV! the neck cannot be deep and round and yet the nose IFV, physical impossibility................unless you mean long and low and not deep and round?

Perhaps we just have different ideas of what deep and round is?
I mean deeper and rounder than the 'competition' outline and I don't see why you can't have that without going BTV.

I don't mean long and low, they are 2 different positions for me, but neither include going BTV (intentionally )

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

can you post a pic of what you consider LDR but not BTV, so we are not comparing apples and oranges?

 

[millitiger]

Will try and have a look for one on google

 

[flippa_t]

ahh yes - should have been able to work that one out, thanks!

It's an interesting discussion - am I right in thinking that the "LDR - low deep round" frame is very different to "Long and Low"? I'll ask for long and low as part of a warm up for some horses, but this frame is never BTV, just asking for stretching and swinging to loosen up before I collect them up.

 

[TableDancer]

and just to pick up on NMT's post..................timely post as we were only discussing this last night-when i competed Bruce i found i had to put him LDR in order to have him supple and swinging..................perhaps the last few weeks we havent been strict enough about this and he has been fairly impossible to get working properly.................so the last week/10 days we have really been on the ball and made sure he has worked LDR in walk, trot and canter and is 100% swinging in that position and OMG-different horse. for me the proof is in the pudding and he is now taking a contact, swinging over his back and is much happier in himself.

Interesting debate

The above chimes with me, in tht I have been taught that, as a horse's level of schooling develops, you should be able to work them in any frame you choose, deep and round, long and low, up and out... But that, in general, the most beneficial work will be in the frame the horse doesn't naturally want to go in: so those who would go around all day with their nose on the floor (obv I don't mean running round on the forehand I mean swinging along) need to do lots of practice in an "up and out" frame, and those which naturally like to go in a very uphill frame with a high head carriage need to do lots of work in a deeper frame - presumbly Bruce would fall into this cstegory.

I think the key is that, whatever frame you aree riding in, thr horse should always remain in front of the leg, seeking to take the contact forward - you can achieve this in any of the outlines I have specified. It is when they suck back and drop the contact, again in any frame, that the work is immediately incorrect.

As far as damaging the horse is concerned, it seems to me that, as with most things, it's all a question of degree. I'm sure it's true that many horses have been damaged by riding them excessively deep and round for excessive periods, both by ignorant amateurs and uncaring professionals. However, the words baby and bathwater spring to mind: misuse by some does not mean the technique itself is wrong. As with anything, it should never be forced, it should never be excessive and horses should be given olenty of breaks in between periods of work.

 

[TarrSteps]

^ What TD said.

I would only add the other potential danger is the horse standing in it's head and using the hand for support. Unfortunately at the lower levels this can be rewarded in tests vs a horse coming above every now and then, and some people confuse the feeling with a correct contact.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

TD-150% agree

 

[TarrSteps]

Its. I blame the phone.