Is it safer for cross country jumps to be fixed or not?

[PogoPumpkinBecky]

Recently there have been quite a few bad falls, where horses have not quite made the jump resulting in them riding into it instead, like jumping into it. Each time the jump has tipped over resulting in the horse falling over the top of it, with the jump moving underneath them. Lots have said the jumps should have been fixed properly, although some have said the incidents would have been alot worse if the jumps were fixed.

What are your opinions on what is the safest, fixed or not?

 

[Lolo]

You were at the RC this weekend, where there were 3 accidents involving a fence rotating when a horse hit it I think? Fixed every time. Our horse was one that did hit a fence- if it had been properly secured he'd have essentially fallen over it, but landed safely on the other side with minimum damage. he other horse who demolished that fance did exactly the same as our horse, only ended up with the fence upside down underneath it...

 

[Mike007]

I hate the idea that a fence could move under us.

 

[NR99]

You were at the RC this weekend, where there were 3 accidents involving a fence rotating when a horse hit it I think? Fixed every time. Our horse was one that did hit a fence- if it had been properly secured he'd have essentially fallen over it, but landed safely on the other side with minimum damage. he other horse who demolished that fance did exactly the same as our horse, only ended up with the fence upside down underneath it...

This exactly! Lolo hope your sis is ok!

If you look at earlier post of bloops/peoples near misses you will see horses who have struck a solid fence. Often the horse manages to
get itself out of trouble and sometimes a fall is inevitable. If the horse/rider has got it wrong a moving fence only adds to the difficulty. Portable fences should be (and will be at BE) fixed.

See my link on the photo post earlier to PC's recommendation for portables.

 

[kerilli]

You were at the RC this weekend, where there were 3 accidents involving a fence rotating when a horse hit it I think? Fixed every time. Our horse was one that did hit a fence- if it had been properly secured he'd have essentially fallen over it, but landed safely on the other side with minimum damage. he other horse who demolished that fance did exactly the same as our horse, only ended up with the fence upside down underneath it...

Ermm, I disagree. Lolo, those fences were NOT fixed, they rotated/moved when the horse hit them! How can you say they were fixed?
They should have been securely anchored down so that if a horse hit them they did not move at all. I have seen lots of incidents where a horse hits a solid immovable fence xc and gets away with it, or straddles it and stops. The fence rotating can be disastrous. Fwiw it has been a factor (not necessarily THE deciding factor) in two fatalities that I know of...
If the fence starts rotating as the horse hits the front/top as it comes up off the floor (as opposed to the horse hitting it as it goes across the top or comes back down again), the fence gets HIGHER, and there's no horse in the world that can clear a fence that is suddenly 10" higher than it thought it was...
It is really really dangerous. There's a reason why BE stipulates that portables should be properly fixed down. I am really shocked that those fences weren't, especially considering where it happened - am I alone in expecting that if I go to a HT or ODE at a big BE venue, the fences should be to BE-standards of safety?
The fall at the corner fence in particular looked horrendous, they're very lucky it didn't turn into a full rotational.

fwiw this is quoted from the recent inquest into a rider fatality:
"A health and safety inspector... said the fence was movable and should have been fixed to the ground. It is clear that the best practice dictates that the fence should have been fixed to the ground and it was not," he said. "Although the use of the fence fell short of best practice it did not contribute to the cause of the accident."

I think we should all be really vigilant about this, check that portables are properly fixed down when we go xc schooling or to comps.

 

[TGM]

I think Lolo was saying she prefers fences to be fixed every time, not that the fences in question were fixed! (Well that's how I read it anyway!)

I'm shocked that an event was running over unsecured portables. I know when we do PC cross country practices the instructors are always very careful to ensure any portables are fixed before members are allowed to jump them.

 

[SpottedCat]

K, I think Lolo was saying the fences should always be fixed and that the ones which fell weren't, not that they were fixed and fell anyway!

Does this affect how people feel about arena XC events? Because those venues which stick portables on a surface sure as heck aren't fixing them down using the methods BE does - how can they, it would wreck the membrane under the surface?

 

[Lolo]

Definitely fixed, not that those fences were fixed! Can vouch for the un-fixedness from a rather first hand perspective and for the first time saw how much a fixed fence can withstand a horse hitting it. The previous year My horse and I had a stop because we approached a large, downhill hayrack too fast and he collided with it at a serious speed. If the fence hadn't been fixed, we'd have toppled it and had a very nasty fall. As it was, all that happened is I went shooting up his neck!

 

[kerilli]

ah, okay, i read it differently, now i can see what you meant... when you put 'fixed every time' in bold i thought you meant 'those fences were fixed every time'! sorry, my misunderstanding.
fixed fences still cause rotationals etc, but in a lot of cases horses manage to save themselves BECAUSE the fence doesn't move.
that horrid fall at the corner that tipped up... if that had been properly anchored, i think that horse might have stood up okay... it wouldn't have been pretty but it might not have hit the deck at all.

 

[NR99]

Posted this link on the other website :-

http://www.pcuk.org/Disciplines/Eventing/Eventing-Organisers/Portable-Cross-Country-Fences/

Have seen too many nasty falls from non-fixed portable fences - Kerilli is right we have to be vigilant at non BE events, personally this is why I prefer BE events. Check your jumps when you are walking the course, make sure they have been anchored. Most PC events will now use spiro fixers but some will still peg in the traditional way.

Yes K you would expect them to be correct at a BE event, no doubt BE will be aware of these recent incidents (all with good camera footage to show what happened) maybe BE should get involved with their venues, especially as so many now hold unaffilliated events.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Being someone who jumps portables at home I have to say they are not staked down, I may change this having read about the falls from them.

I havent hit my jumps ar home but that doesnt say i wont out at an event.

I went XC last year and the course was a mixture of portables and fixed, yes they were small but I honestly never thought of the risks should we hit a non fixed fence.

Now will be reassessing when it comes to XC and checking the fences

 

[kerilli]

Posted this link on the other website :-

http://www.pcuk.org/Disciplines/Eventing/Eventing-Organisers/Portable-Cross-Country-Fences/

Have seen too many nasty falls from non-fixed portable fences - Kerilli is right we have to be vigilant at non BE events, personally this is why I prefer BE events. Check your jumps when you are walking the course, make sure they have been anchored. Most PC events will now use spiro fixers but some will still peg in the traditional way.

Yes K you would expect them to be correct at a BE event, no doubt BE will be aware of these recent incidents (all with good camera footage to show what happened) maybe BE should get involved with their venues, especially as so many now hold unaffilliated events.

Well, I hope BE are aware of it. Very difficult because it wasn't a BE event, I know, but considering where it was...
I'm sure they are always anchored down at BE events because the TA/TD or BE Official and BE Course Designer will have checked them all properly. The only possible exception I can think of is the one that Little Tiger demolished at Belton last year, and I'm not sure it moved, more that she fell straight through it and tbh it was lucky it did fall apart, if it had been totally solid it would possibly have been a worse fall.
How difficult are the spiro fixers to get in and out? can you pull them out using a crowbar as a 'handle' to twist? I've only used them once (to anchor my field shelters) and haven't had to remove them yet.
A friend was xc schooling at Aston-Le-Walls yesterday and said they were picking up and moving the portables very easily, but perhaps they had all been anchored for the competition and they'd gone round an un-anchored them before xc schooling started...

 

[NR99]

Well, I hope BE are aware of it. Very difficult because it wasn't a BE event, I know, but considering where it was...
I'm sure they are always anchored down at BE events because the TA/TD or BE Official and BE Course Designer will have checked them all properly. The only possible exception I can think of is the one that Little Tiger demolished at Belton last year, and I'm not sure it moved, more that she fell straight through it and tbh it was lucky it did fall apart, if it had been totally solid it would possibly have been a worse fall.
How difficult are the spiro fixers to get in and out? can you pull them out using a crowbar as a 'handle' to twist? I've only used them once (to anchor my field shelters) and haven't had to remove them yet.
A friend was xc schooling at Aston-Le-Walls yesterday and said they were picking up and moving the portables very easily, but perhaps they had all been anchored for the competition and they'd gone round an un-anchored them before xc schooling started...

Not terribly difficult, we have someone professional put ours in as we are all girls and shied away from it, however he says we could do it with some brute force using a lever between two of us.

I would have thought they would be releasing them and re-anchoring them in new location all in one go, but as I say it is not an impossible task.

 

[PogoPumpkinBecky]

Yes i was there, i always thought they were supposed to be fixed, but then got confused when the fence judge started saying they are supposed to tip when a horse hits them, surely its not good for the horse to have something rolling underneath it! a few years back the same sort of thing happened to someone i know and the jump was a round shape and on a hill so rolled down the hill under the horse and the horse couldn't get out of it!

 

[NR99]

Pumpkin - I heard about the fence judges comments and believe she is still saying them. All I will say is whilst FJ's are great and volunteer there time, some are more experience than others so don't always take what they say as read.

 

[kerilli]

Pumpkin - I heard about the fence judges comments and believe she is still saying them. All I will say is whilst FJ's are great and volunteer there time, some are more experience than others so don't always take what they say as read.

Ditto.
XC fences moving any other way at all than safely DOWNWARDS (the way prologs break, and the direction in which frangible pins allow rails to move) can be very dangerous.
btw, i read elsewhere that that same corner fence flipped over the week before too, when a girl's horse left a leg...
since BE and PC both stipulate, for safety reasons, that portables must be properly secured, i cannot work out a good reason why they would not be fixed down for an unaff HT or ODE, or even for schooling. i'd love someone to enlighten me...

 

[Thistle]

If I was going to a BE venue to school/compete unaff I would certainly expect the fences to be of BE standard