Is it wrong to be frustrated...

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Patches

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.....when your horse isn't forward going enough?

I love patches to death, as you're all aware. On a pleasure ride, canter up the field or a hack she's perfect. Forward going, responsive, calm and safe.

However, I'm getting increasingly frustrated when schooling. Hence why I resorted to such drastic measures like putting a fence up yesterday! Even that only woke her up on the approach to the fence. I was hoping that just by having it in the school area, she'd be alert waiting for her chance to pop it as she does love to jump.

I don't know whether it's her, me or a combination of the two but I just cannot, for love nor money, get the same impulsion out of her in the field schooling as I can on hacks or across open land. I do try to change things and keep her mind occupied. I realise I'm weak in my pelvis but even so, she does respond to my leg, just lacks forwardness.

Maybe she's stuck in happy hacker mode as we don't school over winter when fields are wet? If I take her out somewhere to a school and there's other horses schooling she's brilliant. Very forward going and generally seems to find other horses about as a buzz. Alone, or with her field mate Tweenie....it's yawn yawn from me.

She's not dead to the leg per se....she trots off as soon as I squeeze. Just very slowly and no matter how much I pony club kick her or smack her with a schooling whip she continues to amble along at her pace.

I find myself trying too hard to get her going and end up with my leg swinging about as I try to leg her on harder. Something I don't do when out hacking at all and her trot is amazing on the road as she happily and eagerly trots about. I feel like I'm Barney Rubble and am trying to push her along with my feet.

Today I tied some baling twine to stirrup and girth to stop my legs moving but I just felt paralysed somehow. She still didn't move on even though I was squeezing in probably the correct place and I felt I needed to be able to work harder with my legs. Same with canter....I get the transition but she doesn't want to keep it unless I turn myself inside out with brute force (not the right phrase I know) to force her on.

Surely riding shouldn't be harder work for me than her at such basic schooling levels? Don't get me wrong, she's super safe, but even so she's not an easy ride and I'm not the only one who finds her hard work.

Grrrrrr.....I love her but I'm considering dousing her food in rocket fuel!

Tonight I found myself so jealous of Hannah on Tweenie. She was so sharp tonight that she bucked Hannah off three times cantering as she was so excited to be schooling! Not that I want to be bucked off, but I'd love Patches to have that enthusiasm for it.

Bless Hannah, she hopped straight back on and I did the pushy mum thing and bawled her out for leaning fowards and inviting Tweenie to chuck her off (wicked me). Hannah rode so much better afterwards. Sat deep and upright, almost leaning back as she bucked, heels well down and she sat Tweenie bucking (all four feet off floor bucks! YEEE HAAA) from one end of the school to the other. Tweenie huffed and puffed at the other end and gave up and worked very nicely after that with no more high jinks
 
Some horses are more chilled than others.. and some like schooling less than others.. But aside from all that, there is always the chance that there is a schooling issue to consider as well
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Have you ever had anyone else on her? Trainer / instructor perhaps? Do you have any lessons?

Either way, dont feel bad about getting frustrated.. everyone does at some point and for some reason or another
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p.s. Im sort of hoping you'll become dressage converts now she's moving so well
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My friend Harley rides her in dressage lessons (or did until it went too dark at night. I'm assuming we'll start up again soon). She finds her hard work to keep going and uses alot of leg on her too. However she's in a group lesson with about 4 or 5 other horses. Never alone.

I had no problems with her warming up for the clear round in the collecting ring. She wasn't following other horses, but by horses just being there with her, she's more alert.

She does seem chilled. I can't seem to razz her up at all. Minimal effort on her part.
 
Well you *could* alter her diet a tad - just be sure of course to make any changes gradually so you dont suddenly end up with a nutter on your hands
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When you're schooling make sure you're tough on her. It's not good enough that she just ambles off when asked, she should also go up a gear within the pace when she's asked too. It's easy to underestimate just how much leg it often takes to get a horse really working also.

Also make sure you're doing a lot to make her think - challenge her. It can be terribly tempting to keep trotting round and round banging on their sides in the hope they'll wake up but that can often be futile. Do lots of circles, ask for leg yields, ask for shoulders in or quarters in. Change the rein alot and not just over a long diagonal. Change the pace alot... up a gait, down a gait, within the gait. Make her not know whats coming next and if she hesitates in responding, ask her sharper or tap her with a schooling whip.

Do you ever ride in spurs? Or would you be comfortable doing so?
 
I feel the same about mine, unless I am full of energy and up for a fight I dont doo skooling as he is exactly the same as patches. We hack mainly. But what I have found that works are 2 things, first, as soon as you get on mean business. I used to get on, give him long rein etc and he used to be even worse, but if I got on and took a firm hold and strong leg from word go, he used to be a lot better. 2nd was lots of transitions in succession at start of session. e.g. walk to trot, walk, halt for 5 secs, trot halt, she should soon not want to stand still as she will be anticipating your next move.

I went through stage that I wanted to sell him and get something fizier, but then I looked at other people having, problems with fizzier horses e.g. moody on the ground etc, which made me feel 100% better and soooo lucky.
 
I have the same problem with April! It's like reading about her.

She's a whizz when jumping and on hacks and doing anything other than schooling but when I get her in the shcool she hates it and turns into a lazy monster!

When I take her to dressage comps and shows she turns into this amazing forward going show off but I can't get it at home so it's hard to practise! She's not exactly over schooled either as I only do it about once a fortnight.

I too have resorted to sticking a jump up hehe. Fortunately (or not) this does work very well for me but I still feel like it's the cheats way.

The only thing I found was being stricted with enforcing my leg aids with a schooling whip, but even then although she becomes repsonsive but her impulsion is sluggish and the outline is still pretty crap.

I will read the other advice given with great interest!
 
Dont accept it. Keep asking until she responds.

The key with these horses is not to get into the mentality that "they dont like it therefore we wont do it". Dont underestimate the intelligence of horses. If they know that they go in the school, plod about and you get off - they win. If YOU go in the school knowing that they wont respond, i can guarentee you will ride differently and more negatively.

My horse can be quite lazy... when you first get on, or for someone who perhaps isnt demanding - he'll plod about quite happily. Find the right buttons and mean business and its like flicking a switch but I have to be so very very tough on him. This doesnt come naturally to me because i tend to be too soft anyway but its absolutly necessary. It takes me a good ten minutes of quite energetic hounding to wake mine up but once he's there, he's incredibly sharp and responsive... but he will test you and he will ignore you if he thinks he can get away with it. (And yes, I ride with both spurs and a long whip although by the end of the schooling, im generally not needing either).

The discipline required, particularly with lazier horses, is immense. You can't let them negotiate with you. It's no good saying that, you kick, they move forwards... not as much as you wanted but they did, so thats ok. Its not ok, thats not what you wanted. Ask, if they dont respond, ask firmer. If they dont respond, use a schooling whip.

As I said before, challenge them. Use lots of movements, make sure you're using your legs correctly and firmly to encourage them to start lightening. If the horse knows whats coming next, then change how you're riding or what you're doing.

A good trainer is invaluable also. Sometimes it just needs someone else to get on and find the buttons to wake them up. For several months with my horse i could NOT get him going to save my life but the longer i spent having lessons and watching my trainer with him, the more i realised how much i underestimated how much she works when she's on board.
 
I think I need some lessons with someone who's used to lazy cobs who can maybe help me find those buttons you're talking about Tierra!

I don't do endless laps of the school area. That would bore me as much as Patches. I get on and I do mean business and I think, it's going to work! Sadly, I run out of steam along time before Patches does. I do have a physical weakness in my pelvis and after a while I simply cannot keep on at her with my legs. I always ride with a schooling whip but that never seems to have much affect either!

I don't know, maybe it's the time of year with her. She's not fed much (has mollichop light and some sunflower seeds), but then she doesn't really need feeding and she's very forward going out hacking so she's not lethargic from a lack of food. I'd be worried about weight gain if I increased or changed her diet.

Several people have ridden her since I've had her and they all say the same thing....she's super safe, but not the most forward going of rides. That was fine when I had her, but now I feel I want more. I'd never sell her, but I find myself hankering for something else for schooling and her for confidence out hacking and pleasure rides. Hubby would love me if I suggested that...NOT!

THere's a woman moved in down the road who is supposed to be an excellent instructor. I might just have to swallow my pride and ask for some lessons. (I feel very inferior next to her).
 
Dont ever feel inferior
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Remember theres always a bigger fish for everyone. Doesnt matter how good you are - theres someone better and that applies to all the trainers out there. Everyone needs help at some stage
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A good instructor will never belittle you no matter how minor the issue might seem.

Im not disagreeing with you as such. I do believe she's a lazy ride - I believe theres a lot of lazy rides out there
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Sometimes there is a definite schooling issue between the horse and the rider though. HOWEVER Ive never seen you ride, so my thoughts are just random musings
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That being said, if she's forward going on a hack, she's capable of being forward going in the school. Safe horses - lazy horses can still be very very difficult horses. People assume because they're safe, that they're easy. They damn well arent! Schooling them can be a million and one times harder than the fizzy things at the other end of the scale. But if she can be sharp on hacks, then she CAN be sharp in the school too
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All this said, you could be spot on and now be ready for another horse. Of course you love Patches and I know you'd never sell her, but sometimes we realise that we want to do something the horse just may not either be capable of or be suited to. You shouldnt feel guilty about that though, it doesnt mean you love her less
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Arent you on a farm? With like... loads of land?
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Cant you sneak a new edition in
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p.s. are you sure you're not turning into a dressage diva? :P
 
I sold my warmblood cos he needed a rocket up his a**e to make him move!

Basically he wanted to be a happy hacker & I wanted him to BD/ BSJA, so I sold him to a really lovely lady who absolutely adores him & wants him to do no more than hack out safely, and then I bought myself a sports horse.

You may have to accept that your riding has advanced to the point where you NEED a horse with a different attitude?

I don't mean this to sound harsh...I can assure you that I cried buckets and buckets over selling Mac, but when the dust had settled, he was in a home where he was loved & not ridden in spurs or whacked with a schooling whip in a vain attempt to make him move, and I had a horse that I didn't want to kill every time I got on it.
 
That's good advice Tierra
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My instructor helped me a great deal in exactly how you have described. Basically I was being too soft and letting mine take the proverbial!
It's still not perfect by any means and she's still a different horse when at a show or jumping but I will just have to keep reminding myself to be tough.

Having someone on the ground is great as they don't let me get away with it! I just have to make sure that I follow through when schooling on my own.
 
sounds like you could be over riding her, which has led her to switch off. i was guilty of this with my cob, she would sort of shuffle around in walk with no rythm or impulsion and in trot she would lean on me and drag herself into the gait before falling flat on her forehand!! i got lessons from a good instructor who taught me to sit still and quiet as my legs used to work overtime and i would chuck the reins at her and literally throw myself forwards in an effort to make her move!! after six months of weekly 1/2 hour lessons the difference is amazing, she moves off my leg with respect and is light and forward, (just the canter to get right now!! - my fault not hers
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) so i would deffo approach the lady down the road from you, i was very nervous about having lessons again after something like 5 years and didn't think i'd ever improve to the standard we are at now!
 
Some horses just don't like being in a school. I had a Selle Francais that wouldn't budge being schooled at home but was a totally different horse out competing. I also could/would never sell a horse so I suggest the following:
1) School him whilst hacking - shoulder in, leg yield, rein back etc so it's a more interesting environment
2) Use poles in the school so that he's got something to focus on. That will engage his brain if he likes jumping.

K
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I might be a dressage diva in disguise Tierra! You never know! LOL

I don't think I've outgrown her in ability though, far from it. I'm not ready to leave the comfort zone that she encases me in and we both still have alot to learn.....a heck of a lot.

I do think my main problem is that, if I'm honest, she's a little too wide for my pelvis. She's an XW saddle and I have a seriously duff pelvis post pregnancy with my last child. I don't have much strength to squeeze her effectively enough. Also with her being, how shall I put it, rotund it's harder for me. Having said that, if I shorten the stirrups a few holes and ride ridiculously short, she's fine! Problem is, I don't feel comfortable like that.

Just spoke to Lucy, her old owner, and she used to school occasionally and jump her in spurs. She also used to ride quite short if that's of any significance?

As for the woman down the road. I don't feel inferior as a rider (although I am). It's just she's somewhat upper class compared to me
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Now you see, I think I'm over riding her all the time. I'd agree with you 100%. However most people think I'm not using enough leg and believe me, there's no more leg left to give. I know I'm weak, so maybe I just don't have the strength in my legs and she's taking the mick as she can ignore my feeble aids.

I've had physio, the full works. I've got permanent ligament damage at the front of my pelvis post child birth and I doubt it'll improve now.
 
Hey C!

Remember when I got P a few weeks ago, and I told you she was lazy? Well I reckon its exactly the same as Patches
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Working harder than the horse is no fun (I know!) and it is also counter productive as the more you nag the deader they become to you. Fact is the ONLY thing you need to work on for now is getting her more in front of the leg. If you need spurs to help you with this then so be it, it is how I am coping at the moment and it IS working. What you need to do with Patches is this, ask once, if no response KICK HARD and shock her into going forward. Doesn't matter if she goes into canter, whatever, you just want her to associate your leg as RESPOND NOW - yeee haaa her too if you so desire! This is without spurs BTW
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Everytime she does not move forwards as soon as you ask shock her into it. She prob totally turns off in her brain hence why she is being lazy.

Sorry not explaining this well as am rushed, have popped on covertly whilst OH is doing the washing up LOL!
 
Well you could have answered your own question there then. Wrapping your legs down and around her when she's so wide and you have pelvic problems is going to be considerably harder than having your stirrups shorter and being able to prod her in the ribs. Shorter stirrups also change everything about how you are sitting and its logical that it would be more comfortable for you.

Onto riding short. Yes, it can make a lot of difference. The thing is, people often drop their stirrups longer than they can cope with under the belief that they NEED to do this to school. Thats rubbish. Longer legs gives you a better and deeper seat, yes, but only if you are capable of riding at this length. It's not a skill thing either (imo), its a practice thing and a muscle "thing". If you drop your stirrups longer than is really comfortable, you will grip with your legs because your seat isnt independent enough to ride at that lentgh. You'll tip forwards, which will push your hands downwards and forwards and most likely drop the horse on it's forhand. Your legs become uneffective because you're gripping to try and keep them "still".

It's much better to ride shorter and work on lengthening your leg slowly. Your lower leg will be more secure so you wont be gripping upwards - thus allowing you to apply it better. In turn you'll be sat better and less likely to tip forwards... again in turn this makes it more likely that you'll carry your hands better and the horse will stand a better chance of working up and into a contact.

Lengthening the leg can be done gradually. Usually some time spent either being lunged or just working without stirrups does it well. Keep the sessions short for the sake of the muscles, but they will start to gain more flexibility.

Patches - is there any chance that pilates or anything like that could help you? My saddle helps me somewhat (my horse is very wide across his back), but I dont have an actual physical issue... more I was purely finding him quite uncomfortable and its one of the reasons i approached first thought (the wow people) regarding my saddle needs.

But yea, you do basically have to consider that if you're slight of build with a very wide horse than physically, it is going to be hard. Im sure you can help things, but to what extent i dont know as its definitly out of my area of knowledge :|

As for the teacher down the road... bet she has horse poo under her finger nails just like the rest of us :P Even if they're manicured
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I would not change her feed - she is good 90% of the time - feed change will adjust that too!

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Totally agree GTs.

I like the weight she's at and I love how she hacks. Wouldn't want her to become a scrambled egg head.
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I think alot of the problems are down to my physical weakness with my pelvis. She's wide for me and I don't mind admitting that my pelvis hurts like stink when I get off after schooling. Never hurts when hacking or pleasure rides though as I don't need to leg her on in the same way. Others say she requires a heck of a lot of leg to keep her going, get transitions etc. so it's not all me.

(although it's mostly me I do confess!)
 
Or that we have 230 acres and she only has 1 3/4 acres? Oh yeah and we don't even have a mortgage as the farm is well and truly paid for ROFL
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I feel far less inferior already!

Mind you, her horses are seriously classy!
 
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I think alot of the problems are down to my physical weakness with my pelvis. She's wide for me and I don't mind admitting that my pelvis hurts like stink when I get off after schooling. Never hurts when hacking or pleasure rides though as I don't need to leg her on in the same way. Others say she requires a heck of a lot of leg to keep her going, get transitions etc. so it's not all me.



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Absolute balls. There are many riders that don't even HAVE legs! As I said above, the prob is she is not in front of the leg and probably never has been - sort that and you will not have to over exert yourself anymore.
 
Oh yes, I appreciate that. Totally understand it. I just need to teach Patches to respond to a light aid, which would obviously be a wise move regardless of any problems I may or may not have.

It's not so much that I find it hard work, it's painful too. When it starts hurting.....I admit I give up and walk about for a while for a break as I just feel I can't go on anymore. If she'd be responsive, better impulsion, off the leg then I'd not get to that situation in the first place would I?

I was in a very stern frame of mind when I got on. I was determined not to let her get away with it. I can kick her really sharply and whilst she chucks her head up for a split second, she never moves off any faster! (This is the horse who won't move if you accidentally catch her with the lungeing whip!)
 
It is hurting because you have your legs clamped around her - I have the same probs in my pelvis (not as ongoingly bad as yours I do not think) and it is so, so weak and if I *try too hard* I can hardly dismount. You are right to take a break if you are hurting.

Do you think you can trust your lower leg enough to use spurs? They must only be used once as a back up to your leg aid (should it be non-responsive). Also use your voice at the same time as a normal leg aid. IMHO she is being naughty and lazy and she knows she can get away with working at 20%. Wish I was closer to you, I would come try what I have been doing with P.
 
Hiya

I had/have exactly the same prob with Sid - he's a steam train out hacking, unstoppable xcountry (well a little more stoppable now in a 3 ring) and a speed demon sjing (particularly when they are small & he can't be bothered!)

however in the school he ended up with bald patches on his sides because I was being 'nice' to him....nag nag nag with my leg & no reaction - in fact he just got slower & more reluctant to work

with my YO on - totally different horse .....she got on and he knew full well she meant business!
Now he's not a cob, but I think sometimes we tends to assume that cobs are naturally 'sluggish' when in fact they can have just as much impulsion & speed as the next horse

Long story short - after a large shouting match with my instructor/YO where she gave out yards to me for being too nice to him & actually making him worse (tough love on her part) I braved spurs (I find they make you keep your leg still because you are so conscious of them)....
the minute I get on he knows I mean business - I make him stand while I sort myself out (girth etc.), I make him 'march' off rather than amble...and in general I changed my attitude completely - just to say I rarely if ever have to bring spurs into play - he knows they are there and that's enough

That's not to say it's easy or I don't slip back - at least 3 times every lesson she shouts 'you're doing too much work - make him take you there' at which point I have to reassess & be more firm again

BUt it does work - sooo much is about your attitude though rather than spurs or whips etc.
dunno if that helps at all ......
 
I know how you feel, when I got my horse first he was totally dead to the leg and even now (4 years later) he's well schooled and obedient to the leg, can still be a lazy sod to school in the arena, (this is the horse who is in a cheltenham gag for xc!!). I bought an extra long schooling whip (110 cm!!) and a pair of spurs and had lots of lessons with a really good instuctor who used to continually shout at me, big farmers kick! and use your stick!! Now he does move away from the leg but it does take time. I find if you lighten your seat in the canter and go into a forward seat it can help and also lots of lengthening and shortening. Pole work can help as it gives them something to go forward to esp if they like their jumping. I also do a lot of lateral work, like leg yielding, and turns on the forehand and turns on the haunches as it gives them something to think about and also teaches them to move away from the leg. My guy is now much better but still needs a reminder now and then with the whip. Am going through it all again with my new horse except when I back up my leg with a touch from the schooling whip all I get is a kick or a buck and she sulks and refuses to move anywhere! I now use a slap on the shoulder with a jumping whip as she can't kick out at that!! Also agree with using voice, really growl and shout at her, I roared at the mare the other day when she threatened to rear and she didn't know what hit her, got her going forward though!! It is frustrating but it's just a case of perserverance and patience, Patches is a lovely horse I wouldn't give up on her yet, good luck!
 
I am sure so many of us are suffering from these lazy horses!

Up until Xmas I was sharing a really lazy welsh cob (which I think have a bit of a reputation for it!). he was a monster in the school, in that he would not respond.

Doing lots and lots of transitions did help, so 4 strides of walk, then 4 strides trot, to halt, to trot - so after you had warmed up do about 5 mins doing as many transitions as you can.

I did manage to get a nice trot with him, but then struggled withe canter. I did get nice transitions, but he wouldn't hold it. He's basically get half way round the school and give up!

I had to used my whip loads to back up my leg - but like you, he wasn't really bothered... I did try spurs at a show, and he did respond, but my instructor told me not to use them whilst schooling as he'd become dead to them aswell, as he is so stubborn...

what was a real shame is that he was such a monkey, that he'd bolt about once a week when hacking, so he clearly can move when he wants!!!

I currently sharing another horse, who is really responsive, so am enjoying riding him. But i would quite like to get the old horse back on full loan (as he has my heart!!), but I am not sure i can bear the whole lazy schooling issue!!

It is reassuring to hear you guys have similar problems - and am fascintaed to find out how you are dealing with them, as I would like to apply them to my old share.
No-one knows how much hard work it is - unless you've been through it!!!!!!! I TOTALLY SYMPATHISE!!!!
 
To be honest Patches - you think she is great in everyway except this, I say enjoy what she is good it!
 
It is hard work theres no doubt about it. Although once you do have them infront of your leg, you'll tend to find that then you can use the much subtler aids.

Mine goes from being an absolute monster to responding to a whisper of a leg movement. Sometimes i curse him and wonder why the hell he cant just respond to that when i first get on and save us both the sweat, tears and arguments to get him there.

It is very easy to be too "kind" to them. My horse completly took the p*ss out of me for quite some time and I didnt stand upto him because i love him and i just wanted to be nice. Yet everytime my trainer got on, I was envious and kicking myself for not being able to make him work like her. She could do a PSG test with him.. i couldnt get him working forwards
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It took me a long time to get out of that mind set but a close friend of mine told me something that stuck with me. We pay a lot of money for our horses... we give them the best life we can... and generally, for 23 hours of the day, they're eating... sleeping.. playing and having a ball of a time. To ask them to work for one hour a day isn't unfair.. it's not cruel because encouraging them to work correctly is better for them longterm but you cant expect them to do it without being told because like us, they're lazy and they wont give 100% if you're only asking for 10%. If they give 10% and you give up, they think they've given enough.
 
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