Is rhythm and regularity of paces born or trained?

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Just wondering...as the title of this thread.

I see that Farouche has won the International Young Horse 6 yr old class, and gotten outstanding marks for paces - rhythm and regularity etc.

I also know that tension and training can have an impact on these things.

To what extent are rhythm & regularity in-born VERSUS trained?

Thoughts anyone?
 
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Well some will natural balanced paces, some will have a more relaxed character so won't tense up. All horses will be trained to improve their paces and control themselves better even if it is just teaching a horse to shorten and lengthen its canter stride. If your horse is very nervy, some could be breeding so have you looked hard at the feeding? Thought about a calmer? Or could be just taking time? My youngster is very chilled but gets very stressed with new things, next time he is fine!
 
Thanks for your post :)

I am hoping to get people's thoughts on the original question, therefore the emphasis of this thread is on the original question.

Is rhythm and regularity of paces born or trained?
 
From another angle, does any certain breed of horse have better or worse inherent regular and rhythmic paces (from the British dressage test marking perspective)?
 
Bit of both. Some horses have naturally good rhythm, others not so. The ones who haven't should be trained to work in a rhthym.
 
Some are born with it. The ones that aren't can be trained to do it. I have one of each :D

My impression is that since the ones that are born to do it can also be trained to improve it even more, that it would be difficult to get a horse that was not born to it up to the same standard that a horse born to it will achieve.
 
@cptrayes - that is very interesting.
With regards to your two horses, you say one doesn't have naturally occurring rhythm / regularity of paces. How old is it now? Which pace(s) are affected? and how long has it taken to improve it? any thoughts on what causes it? i.e. is it tension, spooking, nerves etc. Is it better at home than out at a show? what do you do to improve it?

Do you take them both out competing in dressage? Does the one with inborn rhythmic paces score better than your other one?
 
I would say the same as Cptrayes. My older horse isn't naturally as rhythmic etc as my younger one. We have had to work hard on achieving and then maintaining any kind of rhythm. Partly he gets quite nervy, partly he is very sensitive, partly his breeding / conformation. (Arab). We got there in the end and he now does a passable novice test. Young horse (ISH x kwpn) is built uphill and a naturally relaxed laid back character and settles into a rhythm almost without being asked.
So I would say exactly what CPtrayes said above!
 
As always don't think I should technically post in here, am no expert and am not a serious competitor but hey ho - I think to an extent horses are born with it. The same way some horses are born with good conformation, which could come into it I guess, I think 'quality' of pace is also something they're born with. Of course, I do think they can be trained to become better, but it's much easier if they're born with a good rhythm and regularity.
 
@cptrayes - which breed are the two horses you mentioned? Which breed has the naturally regular paces?
 
I think you can make an enormous difference to the quality of a horses paces with correct training and that includes rhythm. Lots of people simply spoil paces at a young age sadly and lots of horses don't have the paces they could have had.
So while some horse are born with a steady long stride, it can be ruined or enhanced and some horses are born with quite a choppy stride and you can still improve it enormously.
 
Agree siennamum. Being Arab, probably didn't predispose my older boy to naturally long striding dressage oriented paces... But also I only got him as a 7 year old.
 
I think you can make an enormous difference to the quality of a horses paces with correct training and that includes rhythm. Lots of people simply spoil paces at a young age sadly and lots of horses don't have the paces they could have had.
So while some horse are born with a steady long stride, it can be ruined or enhanced and some horses are born with quite a choppy stride and you can still improve it enormously.

This.

The GD came to me with short, choppy paces due to tension and lack of balance . . . as we've schooled him up, we've found that he has a huuuuuuge walk and a huuuuuuuuge trot and when he's fit/schooled up properly his canter goes from bouncy/up and down to powerful/smooth.

His conformation doesn't help him . . . he's upright and short in the back . . . but he's also very free through his shoulders (despite his upright conformation) and when ridden properly can really step underneath himself and sit/push.

When he walks in the field he prowls like a panther . . . really long, ground-covering strides . . . so we knew that the short/choppy walk he gave us in the beginning was down to something in his head.

P
 
When he walks in the field he prowls like a panther . . . really long, ground-covering strides . . . so we knew that the short/choppy walk he gave us in the beginning was down to something in his head.

P

Interesting. So, if a horse can walk / trot/ canter rhythmically without a rider on it's back - i.e. on the lunge, or Pessoa, in the field...then any ridden rhythm / regularity issues are possibly any of the following:
a) tension
b) in it's head - spooking, distracted by what's going on outside the arena
c) green /young horse
d) the rider (not meaning this to criticize any rider), I just mean that a horse can / will move differently when under saddle with a rider on board.

...and if it due to any or all of the above, and the paces are rhythmic and regular *without a rider*, then hypothetically speaking, it must be possible to improve these irregularities when under saddle...
 
I think it is born into them and can be enhanced or ruined through riding and training :)

My two most rhythmic horses have been the ones who don't have the huge, loose movement with tonnes of power and scope to control.

Pilfer was appaloosa x tb, very stocky and workmanlike.
He had superb rhythm and was nicknamed 'metronome' for his fabulous, even canter.
Always a 7 or 8 for paces.

Millie is full tb and although her movement is not extravagant at all, she again, has super rhythm and was always scoring 65-75% at the lower BD levels without a huge amount of training as she was so correct in her work.
Always got minimum 7 and mostly 8's for her paces.

Vinnie has bags more movement and scope than the 2 x horses above but can struggle with his rhythm, particularly in trot where it is just so big the power can run away with him and it is very easy to open the 'throttle' too much and get huge extensions without much asking.
His canter is better than trot and both are improving in leaps and bounds but he needs to be taught how to control and harness the power to improve the rhythm.
In the few dressage tests he has done he has got an 8 every time for his paces and the judges seem far more forgiving of his balance blips due to the flashy movement.
 
Interesting. So, if a horse can walk / trot/ canter rhythmically without a rider on it's back - i.e. on the lunge, or Pessoa, in the field...then any ridden rhythm / regularity issues are possibly any of the following:
a) tension
b) in it's head - spooking, distracted by what's going on outside the arena
c) green /young horse
d) the rider (not meaning this to criticize any rider), I just mean that a horse can / will move differently when under saddle with a rider on board.

...and if it due to any or all of the above, and the paces are rhythmic and regular *without a rider*, then hypothetically speaking, it must be possible to improve these irregularities when under saddle...

In Kali's case, all of the above . . . particularly remembered pain/tension from being previously ridden in draw reins and particularly when ridden by someone who immediately takes up a firm contact and "rattles him up." Oh, and despite his age, he was relatively green when he cames to us in terms of proper schooling.

For example, I've seen him produce a lovely flowing, floating trot both on the lunge and at liberty . . . so I KNOW he can do it under saddle if the various conditions are right . . . saddle fits, his brain in the right place, fit/strong enough, appropriate scales of training established, etc.

P
 
so, if an inexperienced horse has rhythm irregularities (due to tension / being a nervous hot type/ spookiness), obviously it must improve a lot with training, and specifically training in the environment that can exacerbate it (competitions) - think of the Olympic horses at Greenwich - hot, sharp types, prone to spookiness, in a very frightful and supercharged environment...they kept their rhythm (well, except for the poor Canadian horse who thought it was all too much).

So, next question, how do you train for rhythm & regularity?
 
I think you have to have a decent arena and work consistently at home, really establish the horse like a metronome. I find I can get a good rythmic trot on hacks for a short spell and on a good field surface but really get an improvement in a school, and would love to just focus on consistency. In fact I think that at home without distractions is great, you can set the rhythm as a default.
 
so, if an inexperienced horse has rhythm irregularities (due to tension / being a nervous hot type/ spookiness), obviously it must improve a lot with training, and specifically training in the environment that can exacerbate it (competitions) - think of the Olympic horses at Greenwich - hot, sharp types, prone to spookiness, in a very frightful and supercharged environment...they kept their rhythm (well, except for the poor Canadian horse who thought it was all too much).

So, next question, how do you train for rhythm & regularity?

If you have one like my shire/ID/TB hunter, who naturally wants to be in the highest pace he is allowed to be in, you set the ryhtmn with your own seat and do your damndest not to be moved out of it by the horse, using half halt after half halt after half halt to keep the horse with you.

There were long stretches in training sessions in the 3 years it has taken him to "get it" when I half halted on every single stride. And he still loses the plot regularly, bless him. It's a good job it doesn't stop him jumping 6 ft hedges :D

If you have one that's not as forward going, I wouldn't try to teach rythmn first, I'd teach "forward" off the aids, whatever rythmn and shape that first gives you. You can't really settle a horse to a rythmn if it won't move sharply off a leg aid.

If you have a natural rythmic athlete like my dressage bred horse, who is upset by a competition environment, get it right in the home arena first, then introduce wierd things at home. I spent a happy time a few weeks ago making "letters" out of black tape on white tubs and pieces of a white shower curtain that blows in the wind, and pinning them all over the place, including on his hay racks so he had to eat near them. I found out that he ignored them completely - until he was tired or I introduced an exercise he thought was hard - and then they were going to eat him.

That taught me that his problems spooking at the letters at a venue are really nothing to do with the letters, they are to do with stress, for which the only real cure is to keep doing it until he gets used to it.
 
Born (but could be trained / improved, I am sure). I am not a dressage rider, and my horse is not a dressage horse (he is a Clydesdale x Tb). but we consintantly get good marks and comment for rhythm (not for anything else mind you!) - I think he just doesn't believe that he can actually move his legs faster than his natural inbuilt metronome, so naturally extends when asked to speed up, rather than increase pace - making medium trot come naturally - he even spooks in rhythm!

Whereas with a horse that natually has a shorter choopier stride and moves their legs faster to go faster rather than stretch out it must be much more difficult.
 
If you watch foals and young horses loose in a school when they are being viewed by prospective purchasers they normally have pretty good rhythm and for the ones who are relaxed its fairly straightforwards if they are not rushed to keep it under saddle but the big thing with them all is to find the natural rhythm of each horse and not to push it out of that. Some may be more laid back and may need to learn forwards but with a thinking rider even the ones wih less naturaly good paces can be improved
 
hmmm, all very interesting. I appreciate all the feedback.

So, my horse is 6 yrs old, broken in just over a year ago, I bought him a year ago. He is a nervous, sensitive and anxious type. He has lovely paces in all the gaits, when loose schooled, lunged. But he has ridden rhythm and regularity failures when he gets tense, distracted or frightened by something...all his mates are tucking into their evening feeds and he has to work, or a blackbird lands on the arena fence etc as we're schooling.

The walk - medium walk - keeps getting penalised in tests, because he goes camel-like. Free walk on a long rein is his best gait - he completely relaxes into it, and has a lovely over-track in his walk...but the second you pick him up back to medium walk, he gets tense, and if he anticipates a transition, he'll get joggy. I work on it a lot at home, and can feel it through my seat when he loses rhythm in the medium walk.

The trot - he loses rhythm and regularity in a test - due to spooking or trying to gawk outside the school. The trot is lovely and regular in loose schooling, on the lunge, and also ridden (provided nothing spooky is about).

The canter - judges either give him a 7 or a 4. When it's a 7, it is a lovely canter. When it's a 4, the comments say it has gone 4 beat (he's gallopped due to spooking, for example on the weekend the photographer stepped right up to the board as we were coming around in canter, and frightened him, which then led to a 4 beat gallop away from said scary photographer. ;) also judges in little boxes at "C" have a tendency to upset the natural rhythm in his paces, due to him thinking they are scary monsters.

I think in my horse's case, the free walk, the trot and canter are good strong paces - but are affected by spooking and tension. The medium walk is affected seriously by tension and he gets 4's for it. He is inexperienced, and I hope he starts to take it all in his stride with the more outings he does.

I looked around at some of the other horses on the weekend in the warmup, and there were some that just naturally are so chilled out, and they have a good rhythm...not breed-or type-dependent at all. I was thinking to myself... "life could be so much easier" :p
 
slightly different tangent but the one that really bugs me is the freedom of movement & elasticity of gait........ I have a horse that just does not naturally seem to have this full stop! - even in the field he just never shows "good" paces (fortunately I bought him for his personality!)....... on the other hand I now also have 2 warmblood youngsters and you can totally see that all I'm going to have to do is not screw up their paces from what they can demonstrate in the field and I'll be laughing my way to 8's & 9's!!!

So I dunno, you can do all the correct training you like, but you're still going to be limited by the horse's natural abilities - whereas do the correct training on a horse that also has talented paces and bingo!
 
hmmm, all very interesting. I appreciate all the feedback.

So, my horse is 6 yrs old, broken in just over a year ago, I bought him a year ago. He is a nervous, sensitive and anxious type. He has lovely paces in all the gaits, when loose schooled, lunged. But he has ridden rhythm and regularity failures when he gets tense, distracted or frightened by something...all his mates are tucking into their evening feeds and he has to work, or a blackbird lands on the arena fence etc as we're schooling.

The walk - medium walk - keeps getting penalised in tests, because he goes camel-like. Free walk on a long rein is his best gait - he completely relaxes into it, and has a lovely over-track in his walk...but the second you pick him up back to medium walk, he gets tense, and if he anticipates a transition, he'll get joggy. I work on it a lot at home, and can feel it through my seat when he loses rhythm in the medium walk.

The trot - he loses rhythm and regularity in a test - due to spooking or trying to gawk outside the school. The trot is lovely and regular in loose schooling, on the lunge, and also ridden (provided nothing spooky is about).

The canter - judges either give him a 7 or a 4. When it's a 7, it is a lovely canter. When it's a 4, the comments say it has gone 4 beat (he's gallopped due to spooking, for example on the weekend the photographer stepped right up to the board as we were coming around in canter, and frightened him, which then led to a 4 beat gallop away from said scary photographer. ;) also judges in little boxes at "C" have a tendency to upset the natural rhythm in his paces, due to him thinking they are scary monsters.

I think in my horse's case, the free walk, the trot and canter are good strong paces - but are affected by spooking and tension. The medium walk is affected seriously by tension and he gets 4's for it. He is inexperienced, and I hope he starts to take it all in his stride with the more outings he does.

I looked around at some of the other horses on the weekend in the warmup, and there were some that just naturally are so chilled out, and they have a good rhythm...not breed-or type-dependent at all. I was thinking to myself... "life could be so much easier" :p

I think it sounds like you are in a positive place. You know your horse has the ability and the understanding, he is just still green and reactive. I would be inclined to ensure you keep things positive and enjoyable and wait for him to grow out of it.
(mine is a bit this way with SJ and god it's a long haul)
 
In all due respect you are describing a horse that does not have a paces problem but one that is suffering from being stressed which is a totally different problem to deal with.I get the impression he has the paces as you have admitted but he does not show it when spooked.
I think you just need to keep at it until it becomes second nature not to prat about.If he was mine I would try and work him harder until he gets bored with nonsense all young horses go through this stage to some degree or other.Do you hack out much and is he the same? I was always brought up that with young horses you work on their paces out hacking and it was not a dossing time(didnt have a lot of schools in those days) You school them without them being bored to death going round and round a school!
Oh and the pratting about at shows is something we all have to put up with and accept until it becomes second nature ,it would be so easy to make a big issue of it and create are larger problem from one that does not really exist.Just enjoy it for what it is as you have not described to my thinking anything out of the ordinary.I personally always preferred young horses because you never knew what would happen next to the older ones when to me they became boring.
 
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Rhythm and regularity should come with the training (scales of training), its all part and parcel of every day schooling IMO. Yes some horses will be naturally more rhythmical than others but every horse can go in a consistent rhythm with regular footfalls regardless of breed.

Every time I ride I make sure that the rhythm is kept the same in all movements that I do, even with my young horse. Hes taught to go in a good rhythm with regular footfalls. Its all about control and the way you ride the movements and the horse. The horse needs to be listening to you, balanced and on the aids whilst you think about that regular tempo all the time in your head - 1/2/1/2/1/2/1/2/1/2 etc etc. With my older more established horse rhythm and regularity arent really a problem. With my youngster I can get an irregular rhythm as he is unbalanced still as he is young, I just have to make sure that I'm strict with his schooling and keep him balanced so that the rhythm stays the same.

Yes Farouche is a 'wonder horse' - but have that horse broken and ridden by your 'average Jo' and I very much doubt she would be picking up the same marks that she is now. She has such big paces that I can garentee you theres been a lot of training gone in to keeping her rhythm and balance etc.

A horse spooking and being tense isnt really the same thing at all. The only way you will get over that is to keep going out as much as possible until he learns to relax in the arena.
 
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Thanks Popsdosh.

It's been a learning experience for me to ask the original question - I've also done some research into the German views on the topic of rhythm. At the very foundations of the scales of training is rhythm. It can be affected by a myriad of things, and at the end of the day, rhythm has to be ingrained to such an extent that it isn't upset by external factors. It is such an important foundation, that I want to know all I can about it.

This is the first horse I have trained from scratch. My last young horse was born in rhythm, a big moving Hannoverian, but I had him professionally schooled for the first two years, so I didn't do it myself, I didn't want to screw him up :p. My horse prior to that, another German warmblood, was also born with natural rhythm, but she was 6 already when I bought her, working at Medium, and she had been trained by a very advanced German rider prior to me buying her, so all the foundations were there.

It's hugely rewarding to train a horse from scratch, but also filled with thrills and spills :p ...definitely not boring. From going out to a few shows with him, I have realised how much rhythm can be affected by the environment, and have realised that I do not know enough about the topic, (because my other horses didn't have issues in this area). As I looked about in the warmup on the weekend, I realised other horses didn't have rhythm failures...so I started wondering about it. I wish they would put the gender, age and breed of the horse on start lists, so at least you could see if it's the older ones (or not) that are cool as a cucumber and rhythmic in the warm up arena / and in tests.

I want to do everything right by this horse, he's a good one, and I want to make sure he is trained correctly, so I am trying to learn as much as possible about rhythm and regularity, and it helps to understand everyone's different and similar perspectives on the topic.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread! :D
 
In answer to the point in the OP... I have two horses who couldn't be more different. The big horse (IDxTB) is pretty chilled out, very rhythmical and doesn't get worked up. Always gets quite good marks in DR tests for paces and is generally quite "tick tock" if that makes sense. Nothing flashy and tends to be on the lazy side (unless he's hunting, when he's a totally different kettle of fish and has some lovely airs above the ground! :D). The other is a 15hh Connie x pony type. Very buzzy and sharp, easily distracted (I joke that he has ADHD but it's just baby-ness and inexperience). His lacks any sort of rhythm ATM and it's the major thing I'm concentrating on teaching him because without that, we won't have anything else.

I suspect the big horse was probably born like it. He is that sort of horse. Irish hunter type, can be sharp but generally chilled out, workmanlike and takes everything in his stride. So I think he has probably always had rhythmical paces. The baby has absolutely none and was quite clearly not born with it so it'll have to be trained.
 
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