Is this a harsh bit?

[Dutch1horse]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=230445511837

When I bought my mare she was in this and went great in it. I put her in a snaffle and she was fine but now after getting her back from a loan home she has taken the 'head in the air and bomb at the jump' approach so I'm considering going back to this bit. I don't want to use something that is going to cause unnecessary pain so does anyone else use it ? I have never seen anyone else with it in so maybe it's a bit harsher than I thought ? Any help would be appreciated

 

[Dutch1horse]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/straight-...r_Equipment&hash=item35a79f749d#ht_1007wt_689

Maybe this link is better!

 

[BlizzardBudd]

its meant to be good for head raising and brakes.. but thats what i heard when i was looking at different bits to try

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

It's better than having to haul on her in a snaffle but personally i'd rather use a dutch gag then you can have one rein on snaffle ring and a second rein on the third ring as a 'hand break' so to speak

 

[Enfys]

Happy mouth american gag.

I wouldn't call it a harsh bit, hands on the reins and all that. I actually prefer to use them with a curb as well.
Before the link worked I was expecting some wire mouthed hackamore/gag like the hackamore combos on this page:

Ponyiamnotfood...["It's better than having to haul on her in a snaffle but personally i'd rather use a dutch gag then you can have one rein on snaffle ring and a second rein on the third ring as a 'hand break' so to speak "]

But you can have a rein on the 'snaffle' ring, nothing to stop you doing that, especially if you have the 'Sliding gag' style ring which is larger giving more room for reins.

Is Dutch Gag just another name for the 'Wonder bit' (1st on the page) I think the 'Sliding Gag' pictured is basically the same as the 'American gag'

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

Yeah I suppose so actually, never seen one used double that's all.

 

[skewby]

Yes it's severe. Also, as Clement82 says, it is designed to raise the head (all gags are so ditto the dutch gag) so not at all what you want if her head is going up already? Why not try a pelham with 2 reins, as poster above said you can then keep her on snaffle, and use curb as a reminder when you require it. And that is more brakes but with a head lowering action.

 

[skewby]

Ponyiamnotfood...["It's better than having to haul on her in a snaffle but personally i'd rather use a dutch gag then you can have one rein on snaffle ring and a second rein on the third ring as a 'hand break' so to speak "]

But you can have a rein on the 'snaffle' ring, nothing to stop you doing that, especially if you have the 'Sliding gag' style ring which is larger giving more room for reins.

Omg yes definitely, the idea of an american gag being used with one rein is new to me!

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

Yes it's severe. Also, as Clement82 says, it is designed to raise the head (all gags are so ditto the dutch gag) so not at all what you want if her head is going up already? QUOTE]


Dutch gags are poll pressure not raising the head, just unfortunate to share their name with true gags like cheltenham etc.

 

[Enfys]

Yes it's severe. Also, as Clement82 says, it is designed to raise the head (all gags are so ditto the dutch gag) so not at all what you want if her head is going up already? QUOTE]


Dutch gags are poll pressure not raising the head, just unfortunate to share their name with true gags like cheltenham etc.

and, say a 'Cheltenham' does not act on the poll? How so?

 

[Dutch1horse]

Yeh was definately planing on using a second rein with it. So what would be the difference between a Dutch or American gag?

 

[Dutch1horse]

[\QUOTE]

Dutch gags are poll pressure not raising the head, just unfortunate to share their name with true gags like cheltenham etc.[/QUOTE]

I though the poll action would lower the head as well

I know less than I thought ! Silly me.

 

[mrogers]

You only have harsh bits with harsh hands

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

I've always been told and found that dutch gags are pure poll pressure and drop the head, cheltenham gags have poll pressure but this is out weighed by the lifting of the bit in the mouth thus raising the head. *shrugs*

 

[Dutch1horse]

Enfys some of those look like weapons of torture to me ! I think my pony would take one look and run a mile if I brought one of those out

 

[Enfys]

Yeh was definately planing on using a second rein with it. So what would be the difference between a Dutch or American gag?

Apart from the Dutch Gag/Wonder Bit having three rings and therefore more of a choice for rein placement, not really a huge amount.

The round ' snaffle' ring on the Dutch may give less poll pressure (to my mind) as there is more room before the gag comes into play and I don't think they have 'stops' as Myler combinations do. It always beats me why these shanked 'Gag' bits don't have curb straps on them.

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

Yeh was definately planing on using a second rein with it. So what would be the difference between a Dutch or American gag?

An american gag appears to have a longer shank and higher cheek piece ring so would probably apply more poll pressure than a dutch gag but would also raise the bit in the mouth due to the square ring which the dutch gag doesn't as it has the round loose ring which just slips round. Both useful bits, maybe borrow one of each and try them out.

eta: Enfys said it better than me haha.

 

[Enfys]

Enfys some of those look like weapons of torture to me ! I think my pony would take one look and run a mile if I brought one of those out

Have a look at some of the other bits on the pages I could spend hours in this shop looking at the shiny things.

http://www.pleasantridge.ca/wonder_bits.htm

 

[Marydoll]

You only have harsh bits with harsh hands

Agreed

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

Have a look at some of the other bits on the pages I could spend hours in this shop looking at the shiny things.

http://www.pleasantridge.ca/wonder_bits.htm

:O Talk about ripping their mouth off, twisted wire everywhere

 

[Enfys]

:O Talk about ripping their mouth off, twisted wire everywhere

I know several people that use twisted wire bits and their horses have beautiful mouths, mind, I wouldn't pull either if I knew it would hurt. Better than hauling away on a similar smooth mouthed bit I guess.

Horses are generally ridden with a stronger bits and a much lighter contact here than in Europe, if I tried to ride any of my horses the way I would a horse from the UK they'd stop dead and be utterly confused about my signals.

 

[PonyFeet10]

I ride my TB (Yes, TB!!) and my welshxfell mares in one (exactly the same as the pic you posted OP). They go very well in it, I don't have an issue with breaks or steering. They are both ridden in it as they are stupidly strong with something like a pelham, and I HATE to haul on their mouths when they get strong! I think if you use it with soft hands it's not harsh at all, although I have been questioned about it at a few shows.. Especially Pony Club shows! As it can be very harsh in the wrong hands.

 

[skewby]

Yes it's severe. Also, as Clement82 says, it is designed to raise the head (all gags are so ditto the dutch gag) so not at all what you want if her head is going up already? QUOTE]


Dutch gags are poll pressure not raising the head, just unfortunate to share their name with true gags like cheltenham etc.

No, they're not. Because the bit can move freely on the bit rings, this is what makes it a gag bit. As the reins are taken up, the bit is moved higher up in the mouth, raising the head. Yes poll pressure is applied but not to put the head down, simply to allow the vertical vice type action on the head.

Pelhams and weymouths do not move upwards in the mouth, therefore pressure is applied principally to the poll.

 

[Tnavas]

Yes it's severe. Also, as Clement82 says, it is designed to raise the head (all gags are so ditto the dutch gag) so not at all what you want if her head is going up already? QUOTE]


Dutch gags are poll pressure not raising the head, just unfortunate to share their name with true gags like cheltenham etc.

Dutch Gags have absolutely NO poll pressure unless the mouthpiece is resting against the back teeth. To get poll pressure the bit has to be held down in the mouth - eg by a curbchain.

It rises in the horses mouth which is why you will see so manyhorses that wear it with either their heads up too high or in a running martingale holding the head down again.

Bits with Poll pressure are CURB bits with curb chains and no joint either. eg Pelham, Kimblewick, Uxeter, Scamperdale, Army reversable, Weymouth etc...

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

I've only ever seen it used to bring the head down on a horse who runs with his head up :/ And it's only ever done this too, not worked the opposite on them

 

[Dutch1horse]

I ride my TB (Yes, TB!!) and my welshxfell mares in one (exactly the same as the pic you posted OP). They go very well in it, I don't have an issue with breaks or steering. They are both ridden in it as they are stupidly strong with something like a pelham, and I HATE to haul on their mouths when they get strong! I think if you use it with soft hands it's not harsh at all, although I have been questioned about it at a few shows.. Especially Pony Club shows! As it can be very harsh in the wrong hands.

I would hate someone to see me riding in it and think it was ' cruel'. Hmm decisions decisions.
Nice to know someone else also uses it with good results! Thanks.

 

[Auslander]

I know several people that use twisted wire bits and their horses have beautiful mouths, mind, I wouldn't pull either if I knew it would hurt. Better than hauling away on a similar smooth mouthed bit I guess.

Horses are generally ridden with a stronger bits and a much lighter contact here than in Europe, if I tried to ride any of my horses the way I would a horse from the UK they'd stop dead and be utterly confused about my signals.

I'm with you on this. On the yard I trained at in Germany, we rode everything in Tellington Jones bits - which look horrendous! Every horse had a mouth like silk because they had never learnt to pull or lean. All new hires spent min 3 months on the lunge with no reins and stirrups before being promoted to proper riding, so that the trainer was happy that we had totally independent seats, and weren't going to damage mouths.

 

[Enfys]

I would hate someone to see me riding in it and think it was ' cruel'. Hmm decisions decisions.
Nice to know someone else also uses it with good results! Thanks.

On the other hand, she is your horse not theirs, you know her best which they don't, and lastly, does it really matter?

To misquote that old saying: "Those that matter won't mind, and those that mind don't matter"

I love being old enough to go by that

Do as you think best.

 

[PonyFeet10]

Same as what Enfys said..

There are a few other ponies locally which I have seen using them, and have never been seen as being cruel.

Pony Club have rules about some bits, and I think it is MAINLY aimed at young kids pony club kicking with spurs and yanking on strong bits! (Obviously not all young kids, some ride VERY well )

Completely your choice, I do change my mares bit though back down to a snaffle when going for a plod around the village as if I only ride her in the AG she slowly becomes to ignore the 'strength' of it and I end up fighting her..!