Is this criminal damage?

I

Ionadiamond

Well-Known Member
Joined
7 February 2012
Messages
103
Visit site
I have a small yard and have a few liveries in to help costs. I provide large wooden storage boxes (£100 each) outside the stables to keep the yard tidy. One of my liveries screwed locks on 2 of them (outside her stables) without my permission and as I have had to give her notice for other reasons I assume she will be taking them back off again soon leaving me with 8 holes in my lovely boxes.

Does this class as criminal damage (albeit minor) because she didn't have my permission and it's my property??
 
Please don't post if you're not going to be helpful - I post in here for advice not snide comments.

I just want to know if I'm entitled to charge for the holes to be filled in. My contract states that all damage will be repaired and the livery will be invoiced, and if you ask me holes in my property that didn't have holes in previously is classed as damage. Ok "criminal damage" might be a little bit strong because it wasn't done spitefully but I didn't know what else to call it!
 
Ionadiamond said:
Please don't post if you're not going to be helpful - I post in here for advice not snide comments.
Click to expand...

I'm not being snide. You asked if it were criminal damage - I said no, and gave you the reasons why I thought that.

Goodness me - a little cranky perhaps today:confused:
 
Put it down to experience! We rent a house out and walls have had aerials drilled through them without our permission, but that's life.
 
Wow, how big are the holes :eek:?

A tube of wood filler will cost you a couple of quid.
Is it worth the hassle of invoicing her for that, or do you have a personal vendetta :confused::D?
 
id say let it go, its not worth it over something so small.

if i had a box for my stuff outside my stable, i would want to lock it too. you never know, she might leave the lock where it is, and then you will have gained a bit of hard wear.
 
I was told by a letting agent when I let my flat out, to never leave anything that I was bothered about in the flat, as people would never look after it like their own... Its the same when letting stables out too really. I used to let stables out, and provided a lockable box for them to use. I thought they ought to have somewhere safe each.. I also had to replace fences, gutters, young trees that were knocked down with trailers etc. I never asked for any money, just thought that it was part of having liveries really..

I can understand that you are annoyed that she didn't ask - she should have, but I would just tell her that you expect the lock and keys to be left when she goes, if not perhaps charge her for a replacement lock to put in the hole she has made, or ask her to make good the holes.... Criminal damage is a bit OTT.

Reading between the lines, it sounds as though this livery has really pee'd you off in general and this is kind of a last straw scenario. I'd just focus on the fact that she is going and not let it stress you.
 
I would say the livery was discourteous for not asking permission from you to add the lock, but I assume she added a hasp/hinge and really she should leave that and take the padlock and you are then left with a means of locking the box. Tbh I wouldn't leave anything of value in an unlocked box and knowing how items tend to 'walk' in yards unlocked the box is of little use imo.

I don't think this amounts to criminal damage.
 
You could argue that she has saved you the time and trouble of having to drill and fit hasps and locks. Given the number of posts on here about items being "borrowed" unless they were locked to the floor, I can't believe many liveries would be happy to put their expensive possessions in a box that anyone can open and help themselves to. One previous livery where I am drilled holes all over the front wall of her wooden stable in order to fit a rug tidy, corner manger and even a tool holder (yes she kept brooms and the like INSIDE the stable. They were heavy fittings so the screws holding them up were quite substantial. When she left the stable looked like Gruyere cheese.
 
amymay said:
But it's a box to keep things in - outside a stable....... I actually think a lock is a very sensible idea.
Click to expand...

+1

It's not a snide comment. I'd provide latches on all the boxes and give people the option to padlock anyway personally.

Why spend £100's on yards stuff if you don't expect it to take some knocking... what would you do if a horse booted it.. bill them?!

Pan
 
Did the livery know the box was yours? Did they know they weren't supposed to do anything to it that you didn't agree with?

Are the boxes yours, or did you gift them to the yard/other liveries?
 
Criminal damage no I don't think so if a person took a hack saw to your locked gate to get in that would be criminal damage but I do not think any court would consider putting a lock on a box to protect property to be anything more than discourteous .
 
The livery should have asked out of decency, but I think if you tried to go down the 'criminal damage' route, you'd be wasting your time, and that of the police, who have got real problems to deal with.....you obviously respect your yard and help liveries by providing nice things, so when you get a new livery don't assume they're all courteous and ask them not to put locks on the boxes, rather than assuming they won't
 
Criminal damage? No!

A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.
Click to expand...

Criminal Damage Act 1971

Agree with amymay and yet again am reminded how lucky I am to have a lovely, reasonable YO :)
 
It might have been nice of her to ask first, but as others have said I would expect to lock this kind of storage box any way. At the end of the day its a few holes in a box-not a big deal in my book.
 
She's saved you getting out the drill to provide locks on the boxes, which would have been nice to have been there, in the first place, either put on by you or your liveries. Sounds like you are looking for additional reasons to not like this livery maybe to justify your initial decision to ask her to leave ....
 
I don't think it fair to say that she has saved the OP time! OP didn't want the boxes to have locks on by the sound of it...

At my friend's yard they get a box/enclosure to keep wheelbarrows rugs and tools in - they don't lock.. Its not really clear from this thread what kind of box it was - if it was for tack etc it should really be lockable, but lots of yards round here don't lock their storage areas - you leave things at your own risk.. OP seems to have disappeared though, so we may never know!
 
It is definately NOT criminal damage unless the person had criminal intent to damage the goods. If the owner considers they have a claim ,it is a civil claim and the owner needs to take out a civil action (at their own expense). Trying to claim it is criminal damage is meerly wasting police time and resources. Sounds to me like a YO tring to get someone else to do their own work. Petty and ridiculous.
 
How petty. Just ask her to leave the latch on & you won't have holes. Even so, if it bothers you that much buy some wood filler, be a lot quicker!
 
amymay said:
But it's a box to keep things in - outside a stable....... I actually think a lock is a very sensible idea.
Click to expand...

As do most, it seems!! ;)

Ionadiamond said:
Please don't post if you're not going to be helpful - I post in here for advice not snide comments.

....... Ok "criminal damage" might be a little bit strong because it wasn't done spitefully but I didn't know what else to call it!
Click to expand...

I'd say that amymay's comments were, in fact, helpful. I'd also say that a few screw holes in a wooden box, which presumably held a hasp and latch which might perhaps have been put there during the manufacturing process, could more accurately be described as fair wear and tear.

I'm not being snide, I simply don't agree with you, sorry!

Alec.
 
The first thing most people would do would be put a lock on a box where they've to keep their equipment, or ask you, to put a lock on it. she saved you some time, and if her stuff had been nicked, possibly the cost of replacing said equipment, if i were you, id put locks on them all.
 
Taking the legislation literally yes it is criminal damage, however her actions were reasonable and she may claim that she believed you would have consented had you known in advance what she intended to do.

I would guess that the locks have been on for some time. If you wanted to make a complaint of damage you should have done so when you first noticed the damage.

I have to say though, that your complaint wouldn't really go anywhere.

You could bill her for the damage or ask her to leave the hasps on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top