Isabell Worth & Wendy
- Thread starter SEL
- Start date
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Gigolo looked the same, the feet end up looking all flippy floppy and huge. I will say that it looks like she could be in a different saddle (one of my mentors swears it is), her stability is completely different and there are elements in the work that are improved, even if I'm never going to say I like much about her tests!
A lovely cocktail of excessive power, incorrect unbalanced movement, often only one foot on the floor in trot/P/P and potentially stiffened upper joints, then something has to take the strain. No idea if there's a horse version of the diagram in this post https://www.facebook.com/stephbloom...125523520.-2207520000/180471307809759/?type=3
A lovely cocktail of excessive power, incorrect unbalanced movement, often only one foot on the floor in trot/P/P and potentially stiffened upper joints, then something has to take the strain. No idea if there's a horse version of the diagram in this post https://www.facebook.com/stephbloom...125523520.-2207520000/180471307809759/?type=3
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I thought it was a fabulous test, very harmonious and I loved the music as well
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Super spider horse. Pretty much everything I think is horrible about modern dressage breeding and competition. I wonder what it takes to keep her looking sound and how much longer she'll stay that way.
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CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I had those same thoughts.
My horse is a bit flexy and long in his front pasterns. It is what it is. If someday it causes an issue, then that's that. I've seen other dressage horses with a decent amount of flex and length too. I can't say that mine is an extravagant mover or anything though.
TSF Dalera BB has a good amount of flex to her as well, and she's still sound at 17 and has had quite the career. I don't know what her maintenance regimen is like though. I'm not sure if she's "excessive" but that may depend on one's definition.
I pick apart my horse on occasion, but he's fine until he's not, and that's that. He's not reproducing either. I've known some horses with questionable conformation that ended up being sound longer than the "rules" would've predicted.
Horses can be crapshoot, but I don't agree with some of the breeding practices and "desired" traits nowadays.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I know it's not the point of the thread but please can we remember that not only was Isabell one of the creators of Rolkur as a training method, she also continued to stand by and support Helgstrand immediately after that horrific documentary was released, and continues to hold clinics etc there and be photographed with him. Vile woman who shouldn't be anywhere near animals.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Oh agreed, but much of what happens at top level turns my stomach to an extent, though rollkur was invented a long time ago...she was a proponent, and an early one this time around.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I am very far from being a Werth fan.
Even before all of the Helgstand exposure. I was never a fan of him either.
Involving animals in a sport isn't the best of ideas for a variety of reasons, but here we are.
Even before all of the Helgstand exposure. I was never a fan of him either.
Involving animals in a sport isn't the best of ideas for a variety of reasons, but here we are.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I stand corrected on the creator bit, but bit advocator and teacher of it yes
I don't want to derail the thread and make it another dressage ethics debate but I have seen SO many applauding videos online just because the horse isn't so tense and behind the vertical, and it's frustrating that everyone seems to be able to overlook what a god awful woman she is just because of one not horrific looking test (I haven't watched the whole thing, but going form the comments on it it wasn't horrific anyway)!
Nicnac
Well-Known Member
Fantastic music and floorplan. Her methods aren't great (under statement!) but the horse is only 10 and to train a horse to perform at that level in a relatively short time is impressive. The mare didn't look distressed and wasn't overbent. That said spaghetti legs and that overextension has to create issues further along the line if it hasn't already. I don't like watching her ride.
Wonder how much they paid Barry Manilow to change Mandy to Wendy!?!
Wonder how much they paid Barry Manilow to change Mandy to Wendy!?!
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Whilst I DO NOT like her riding, she's actually a nice person and very helpful and approachable. Don't get me wrong, I abhor what competitive dressage has become and left the sport because of it, and she's a major proponent of all the bad stuff. But a bad person she is not.I stand corrected on the creator bit, but bit advocator and teacher of it yes
I don't want to derail the thread and make it another dressage ethics debate but I have seen SO many applauding videos online just because the horse isn't so tense and behind the vertical, and it's frustrating that everyone seems to be able to overlook what a god awful woman she is just because of one not horrific looking test (I haven't watched the whole thing, but going form the comments on it it wasn't horrific anyway)!
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Even dressagehub has praised her for the improvement in the horse in the last 6 months.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
I am surprised that you do not believe that not only actively supporting widespread, systemic and horrific animal abuse (I am referring to Helgstrand but that is not the only person she has publicly stood by) but committing it yourself does not make you a bad person.. You are more than entitled to your opinion of course, and I can separate the actions from the person in some instances, but personally not in this one.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I stand corrected on the creator bit, but bit advocator and teacher of it yes
I don't want to derail the thread and make it another dressage ethics debate but I have seen SO many applauding videos online just because the horse isn't so tense and behind the vertical, and it's frustrating that everyone seems to be able to overlook what a god awful woman she is just because of one not horrific looking test (I haven't watched the whole thing, but going form the comments on it it wasn't horrific anyway)!
Yes, but, at the same time we should praise and recognize progress. It doesn't necessarily mean that faults are being overlooked.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I didn’t think that was BM even before the name change.
Although I don’t agree with IW’s comments regarding heigstrand and am unhappy with any one supporting him , I still say this was a lovely test
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
you have more faith than I about what is happening behind closed doors - I would love to hold the same optimism!
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Believe me, I don't.
However, if we see a horse look a bit more relaxed, a bit less cranked in, and any improvement, it should be noted, IMO. We can't just harp on the bad all day long. That doesn't mean we should lose sight of the bad either though.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I'm basing my opinion of her character on personal acquaintance, she's a nice person who rides and trains in some ways that I don't like. She rides her young horses very sympathetically, I'm not sure when exactly it starts to tip over into being too strong/ incorrect.
There are many, many people who ride badly (very badly); I don't immediately decide I dislike them because of that.
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TheMule
Well-Known Member
I much preferred watching this to watching many of the tests that are on show- she is a master of presenting them beautifully in the contact with the nose slightly in front of the vertical. It's a young GP horse still finding a bit of balance. I hate the false piaffes and passages that competitive dressage forces, but she is much better than many!
tristars
Well-Known Member
Utterly horrible, and using the spurs continuously
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
If you set aside things you know about Werth (her association with Helgstrand and all that), it was better than many international GP tests I've seen. The horse was in front of the vertical most of the time. She looked pretty relaxed. She actually had a piaffe. The passage was bouncy and rhythmic.
She looked weak behind in the extended trots and tight in the tempi changes and lost rhythm transitioning out of the canter piris.
I tuned off the music because it sucked and was annoying me. But I think that's in the FEI rules for freestyle music. It must be absolute shight.
Anyone want to hire me as a judge?
She looked weak behind in the extended trots and tight in the tempi changes and lost rhythm transitioning out of the canter piris.
I tuned off the music because it sucked and was annoying me. But I think that's in the FEI rules for freestyle music. It must be absolute shight.
Anyone want to hire me as a judge?
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Novices or the unskilled ride badly, the skilled and knowledgeable knowingly commit cruelty. Might I also remind you that Ted Bundy was notoriously personable.
Rolkur aside, lets not ignore the blood elminiation at Aachen in 2022, the 2 times I can recall that she has been elimiated/suspended for breaching anti doping. (I also think it's disgusting that she's competing one of Helgstrands top horses while he is suspended from competition, to knowingly ride a horse you know has been trained solely with cruelty is beyond my understanding - but that is not the hill I am choosing to die on here).
If this is a demonstrated history of just 'riding badly' to you (on the international dressage stage/warmups no less, god knows how much worse it is in private), then I fear for what you consider cruel:
Clinic footage posted 5 months ago:
Or more from 2022?
Or how about the Blue Tongue Scandal she was also implicated in that made news in Sweden (Eurodressage article written in March 2024 about the world cup qualifiers in Amsterdam)
Cortez
Tough but Fair
My goodness you are getting a bit aerated (not sure what Ted Bundy is doing here; Isabel is hardly a serial killer, and I’m fairly sure Mr. Bundy wasn’t a dressage rider). I used to be a competitive dressage rider, but I left the sport because I hated the way it was going, so you can be sure I’m on the same page as to what bad riding and training is. I wasn’t aware that it’s required to hate people because they’re bad riders? Unfortunately there are probably more of those than really good ones, and few people believe that they are being cruel by riding the way they do (this applies as much to Isabell Werth as it does to an unbalanced, unsophisticated “average” rider). I’ve seen her ride at home by the way, and there’s no secret “worse” stuff going on, if anything it’s softer when there’s not the pressure of competition. Do I hate the style of riding? Absolutely yes: I don’t hate the person.
I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
Its not because they are bad riders, its because they are good riders who chose to do vile things.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Yes I think any strong emotions are about this, we can forgive bad riders if they have no idea, or are trying. Wantonly using abusive methods is very different, and I won't shift my perspective because someone's nice. My comment is more academic - I work by stabilising riders in the right saddle, from the pelvis, so I'm always interested when someone changes to a better saddle (it may still be Bates, might even still be "badged" an Isabell, but something's different) for them. Witness Carl in London in 2012, in an Amerigo that didn't actually tip his pelvis into anterior tilt and his back into excess lordosis. His leg is a little forward which means a tweak may still be needed, though having him in a more forward balance position would help that...
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Cortez
Tough but Fair
I think perhaps purposes are being crossed, and I don’t want to get bogged down, but I’m not forgiving anyone their abuses (and I include people who ride badly because they are unskilled but don’t know it along with people who are skilled but choose to ride badly).
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
God, modern dressage is so ugly and sad to watch.
Knowingly abusing animals is a fairly major red flag to me in what I consider to be a bad person - personally.
Knowingly abusing animals is a fairly major red flag to me in what I consider to be a bad person - personally.
Teaselmeg
Well-Known Member
I found her test robotic, I thought the same when she competed Bella Rose.
It's hard to praise a 'better' outline etc when you know she is only doing it to keep the critics happy, not because she has seen the light and wants to improve.
It's hard to praise a 'better' outline etc when you know she is only doing it to keep the critics happy, not because she has seen the light and wants to improve.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Alternatively I think it’s good that the critics - who aren’t judges- are having any impact at all.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
Just because that test isn’t as awful as normal doesn’t mean anything.
I’m not saying who or where this is, but this young rider was being applauded for her results just recently and it makes me want to cry, she rides like this and the judges reward it, so the more that appalling practices can be called out, the better, and if it has a role in improving the life of competition horses then thank god, because I don’t want to see the next generation riding this badly
I’m not saying who or where this is, but this young rider was being applauded for her results just recently and it makes me want to cry, she rides like this and the judges reward it, so the more that appalling practices can be called out, the better, and if it has a role in improving the life of competition horses then thank god, because I don’t want to see the next generation riding this badly