ising two year old aggression in stable

Wagtail

Wagtail

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This young gelding was born here and I have handled him from day one. He always had attitude, even as a young foal and would try to kick you, and his Mum, until his Mum squared him up and he stopped kicking. Then he started biting and continued this until he was about a year old. Then he stopped. He's been great until the last month when he changed from being out 24/7 to being out for 18 hours a day and stabled for 6 due to the wet weather. Most of the time he is great, and learns really quickly. I changed him into a rope halter because he was getting strong (he's already 16.1) and he's responded brilliantly and no longer runs you over. He knows to back up when you enter the stable and to wait until asked before walking out. Stands back whilst you open the gate etc. And is great for me to handle in all ways except for one. When I go back in his stable to replace his rug before he's turned out. A couple of weeks ago he was very aggressive to his owner and bit her really hard. Then another time he wouldn't let her get out. She was frightened and had to shout me for help. I don't understand why he is good to handle in all ways except for this intermittent problem in his stable. Any ideas? I have told his owner not to treat him as this was making things worse. I don't think it is lack of turnout because he is out for 18 hours a day with my youngster and my gelding. He's bottom of the pecking order.

ETA He is not allowed to get away with biting and has always been reprimanded. He hasn't bitten me but just threatens ears pinned.
 
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Whether the recent problem is due to treating or not, anyone who has a youngster and treats them is cruising for a rude awakening. I never treat my horses and I certainly wouldn't ever treat a youngster.

It sounds like he'd rather be out full time and doesn't want to be restricted to a stable to me.
 
The change from being turned out on grass to being in and handled more routinely should make him more mannerly not less, is he now getting extra feed to make up for less grass? Is he tied up for rug changes, I would tie up short before doing anything with him, he may still be a baby but he is too big to behave like that.
 
I would tie him up to replace his rug, and it sort of sounds like he may be trying to see if his owner will back down to him. I'm guessing she is a little nervous after him biting her hard? Maybe he is picking up on this and pushing boundaries.
 
Is he being aggressive or saying I hate that rug ?
I never rugged any of my youngsters until they where in work I think if they have a full coat it's itchy for them .
I never gave mine treats either it does tend to make them horrible .
 
if he was mine he would get a good whack for that sort of behaviour. might not be a popular answer but I will not tolerate that sort of behaviour there is imo no excuse for it
 
Snapping at the rug is one thing, preventing his owner reaching the door to get out is another.

It would be the horse wanting to leave if that happened to me.
 
Spring Feather said:
Whether the recent problem is due to treating or not, anyone who has a youngster and treats them is cruising for a rude awakening. I never treat my horses and I certainly wouldn't ever treat a youngster.

It sounds like he'd rather be out full time and doesn't want to be restricted to a stable to me.
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Totally agree. I don't hand feed any horse routinely and do not understand why folk wonder why young horses behave inappropriately when they do. In fact not just young horses, I had a 23 yr old Shetland who had nipped all his days til I got him and firstly stopped any hand feeding and secondly elbowed/kneed him in the chops a few times. Cured.
 
Owner will have to nip this in the bud, keep the head collar on in stable when he is being handled. This way she can make him face her all the time, if he gets bolshy turn him in small circle and end up with his head facing you at stable door,get him to move over back up etc in stable. If he goes to bite- very quickly move his head away (you still have head collar and lead rope on) and say a very firm no, hopefully he will soon get the message. She will have to be very firm but fair he is just trying to throw his weight around (literally) Good Luck.
 
I think he needs some serious attitude from owner, it sounds as though she has let him off with bad behaviour so now he is taking over, why people buy youngsters is beyond me, its a high risk strategy.
Don't mess about with him in the stable, don't take risks, he can be out of his stable for mucking out and grooming, and the feed bucket put in at the door.
I would not rug him, he could go away for some training if old enough, but I would be very careful that he was not going to get knocked about.
I well remember Hangover[Gizzmo], first came to my attention when his lad jumped out of the stable though the top of the doorway! A bit of a handful!
Most horses get like this through bad handling, and it can be overcome, but not by inexperienced handlers.
NEVER EVER give treats to spirited youngsters.
 
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Goldenstar said:
Is he being aggressive or saying I hate that rug ?
I never rugged any of my youngsters until they where in work I think if they have a full coat it's itchy for them .
I never gave mine treats either it does tend to make them horrible .
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I wondered that.
I give my youngsters treats, that's how they know they're doing the right thing and it certainly hasn't made them horrible. If they do ever get a it pushy about them, they soon find out that I'm in charge of the treats, not them.
 
It's not the rug because he let me take it on and off him loose in the field no problems. He is also fine for me to put it on but it is when I go for the door he gets aggressive. He doesn't tie up - I know!!! I have been telling his owner for over a year that he needs to be trained to do it. She's not even tried to. I guess it will be down to me.
 
He has a very fine winter coat just like his dam (she never needs clipping). He is out from 3 pm until 9 am and the weather has been foul. It is not the rug he is objecting to. When he bit his owner she was just standing in his stable. When he wouldn't let her out it was after he had had his feet trimmed and she put him back in his stable. She is very nervous around him but also is always getting hurt by horses (by accident) poor thing.
 
Not help regarding the aggression - that's been done by others, but with the treats - it does depend on the horse. I've always treated my filly, as every other horse I've had. She knows she had one polo for catching, and one after she has done any work. Been like that since she was 6months. She KNOWS that is all, begs for the one, may try to rummage for more at times, but has NEVER shown aggression. She would get a smack for it. So, please don't assume that all those who get treated turn.
 
Wagtail said:
She is very nervous around him but also is always getting hurt by horses (by accident) poor thing.
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Lots of helpful advice from others, but a nervous owner and a bolshy youngster is never a good combination. He has her where he wants her and knows it. She needs to sell him and get something more suitable.

Sorry for the bluntness, but you are either cut out to deal with this sort of thing or you are not, IMHO. Its not for the fainthearted.
 
Why oh why do people buy/breed youngstock and not handle them properly. It is my major hate of the horse world, not that I am any expert. I firmly believe the lessons and manners learnt from birth through the early years are the foundation for the horse to go on and be a pleasant animal for the rest of it's life.

This one is fortunate to have wagtail to sort him out before he is passed on as dangerous. As for the owner she would be better with a 22 year old than a 2 year old horse.

I use treats occasionally with my 2 year olds but they have to earn them. I don't treat for anything I consider normal behaviour. Ted had a carrot on Monday after doing an hour of work in the barn, that involved accepting driving harness being put on and off, baby long lining, accepting lines on his hocks and accepting his manikin being put on and off. He earned his treat with was given at the end when he was back in the box.

Good luck with the horse, but be careful Wagtail.
 
Wagtail said:
It's not the rug because he let me take it on and off him loose in the field no problems. He is also fine for me to put it on but it is when I go for the door he gets aggressive. He doesn't tie up - I know!!! I have been telling his owner for over a year that he needs to be trained to do it. She's not even tried to. I guess it will be down to me.
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As he is on livery with you, and has been all his life, I think he should have learnt to tie up by now and if she has not done it then it is up to you, it will make your life easier in the long run, I would have tied him up last year when he was weaned just as a routine part of being a livery and handling each day. He has missed out part of his education and it appears he is going to prove too challenging for his owner without some professional help or possibly even with!
 
Teaching it to tie up now it going to be a horrible job .
I had it done long before weaning
Why oh why do these people breed horses it's just mad .
Best thing would be to move it to livery on a commercial stud and let them sort it out .
You very little time to get a grip on this or the horse risks heading for a horrible life as a rude problem horse .
 
I have said time and time again he needs to learn to be tied up. The reason I haven't done it myself was in case he hurt himself and then I could get the blame. Had he been mine he would have tied up at 6 months.

The reason I broached this subject is because I was thinking of taking him on myself, but wondered if anyone else had experienced this type of behaviour and did it just get worse? He really is a delight the speed at which he has learned things from me and I've been very pleased with him. But even bringing him in this morning, he was an angel until I removed his halter and then his ears pinned and his whole attitude changed as I headed out of the stable door. I am wondering if he IS actually being aggressive, as his DAM pins her ears a lot when humans approach her, but she is not being aggressive and is the soppiest thing going, and loves attention. It's very strange.
 
My mum never tied her Shetland up, he was tied once as a weaning and she hasn't done it since, I tied him up last month (rising 5 ) and he was fine, totally different type of horse I know but treat a baby horse like a baby and it will act like one, I've treated my mare like a full grown horse and expect her to behave like one she's rising 4 now and n Boxing Day people were saying wow hasn't she got lovely manners.... Doesn't she stand well for children to stroke her.... Why are people surprised by manners??? And why do people breed horses if they can't handle a youngster?? My 4 year old daughter could lead our mare or the shettie my mare is 15.2 but has respect for any human , and yes she met the blue pie a few times as a 2 year old for lifting a leg at me, it meant repeatedly putting myself in the situation where she would rais ethe leg and problem was sorted quickly, I now have a wonder Mare who anyone can go in the stable with muck out around and rug, unruffled, bandage etc with out a head collar

Eta she ties up nicely and will stand all day if I drape her lead rope over a door cos she thinks she's tied up
 
Wagtail said:
I am wondering if he IS actually being aggressive, as his DAM pins her ears a lot when humans approach her, but she is not being aggressive and is the soppiest thing going, and loves attention. It's very strange.
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Hmm, thats quite interesting - one of mine is only proper grouchy when not working but he spends mnost of his time with his ears flat back but is in reality the nicest, softest thing going. Maybe some horses just like that? Although the biting/pinning against the door is clearly not acceptable at all.
 
I always ignore grouchy behaviour ( unless of course they actually biting ) if they are out of space when they do it.
Wagtail I understand totally why you don't want to take this on now because it might not be pretty and there is potential for them to hurt them selves .
 
lurcherlu said:
My mum never tied her Shetland up, he was tied once as a weaning and she hasn't done it since, I tied him up last month (rising 5 ) and he was fine, totally different type of horse I know but treat a baby horse like a baby and it will act like one, I've treated my mare like a full grown horse and expect her to behave like one she's rising 4 now and n Boxing Day people were saying wow hasn't she got lovely manners.... Doesn't she stand well for children to stroke her.... Why are people surprised by manners??? And why do people breed horses if they can't handle a youngster?? My 4 year old daughter could lead our mare or the shettie my mare is 15.2 but has respect for any human , and yes she met the blue pie a few times as a 2 year old for lifting a leg at me, it meant repeatedly putting myself in the situation where she would rais ethe leg and problem was sorted quickly, I now have a wonder Mare who anyone can go in the stable with muck out around and rug, unruffled, bandage etc with out a head collar

Eta she ties up nicely and will stand all day if I drape her lead rope over a door cos she thinks she's tied up
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This.

I think the owner needs to start telling the gelding who rules as at the moment he thinks he says what goes :(.

Shame it wasnt done earlier but all horses need to be able to be stabled safely. Perhaps spending some time, in between bringing in and turning out, on some groundwork will improve things. He needs to learn the she controls where his body is, not him, so the usual shoulders away, quarters away, stand and back. Definitely dont do it in a stable yet as this is a space he currently has full control of.
 
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The comment about the dam pinning her ears back is interesting, foals mimic their dams, good bad or indifferent.

My filly has taken all her mothers ways, delightful and calm temperament, easy to handle etc, but the dam paws at gates and doors if she thinks she is being left waiting too long. Alice picked that habit up very quickly and now as a two year old batters gates and doors on a regular basis, injuring herself recently.

At least the horse is in a yard where his behaviour is being analysed and hopefully he can be turned around before anything is too established.
 
AdorableAlice said:
The comment about the dam pinning her ears back is interesting, foals mimic their dams, good bad or indifferent.
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Yes I thought that too. My mare pins her ears and pulls aggressive faces, but if you ignore them and carry on regardless she does too. If people react nervously she bullies them. In fact she did the not letting husband out of the stable trick. With her, hubby just carrying a whip into the stable when hubby was doing things soon levelled the field again and she was fine.

My instincts say try going back at him and pushing him around when he is "aggressive". Definitely stop the treats!
 
I've done lots of groundwork with him as I am leading him in and out. He learnt very quickly and has stopped throwing his weight around. He is lovely for me to handle, always comes in first (as is the one always wanting to come in by the gate). Never tries to bite or throw his weight around outside the stable. Part of me thinks I will have to sort the tying up thing myself, as I know his owner doesn't have a clue and will probably make things worse. I am perplexed why she bred such a huge foal. I virtually begged her to go for a smaller stallion as she is very petite. But she loves big horses.
 
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