italian team

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ruby111

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didnt the italians do well!!!im really not boasting but i predicted thislast week.what a job marcus fuchs has done in such a short time.miraculous................
 
knowing the italians the other teams went worse that they did!
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The only miracle that the Italians need is a new stable of horses capable and sound enough to do the job and a complete change of rider-ones who think a bit less of themselves and their capabilities
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didnt the italians do well!!!im really not boasting but i predicted thislast week.what a job marcus fuchs has done in such a short time.miraculous................

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I read somewhere that he has instilled some discipline. Never a bad thing. And its obviously worked. Maybe some other show jumpers should do the same?!
 
thats what i heard too.makes sense too after all if it was the case that the italians were just a group of bad riders and horses to start with even god couldnt have turned them into medalists that fast
 
they said he has indeed instilled some tough measures but only during the day! and this team has only been together in its entirity twice.... Dublin was the first time. all of these riders are disgustingly winning as individuals in europe, so i suppose the trick was putting them together as a team.
what ever it was they jumped fab.
 
i was waiting to give your tuppence hapenny.i heard tough measures were applied at very first training session in italy.really though makes you realise the HUGE difference that a seriously good manager can make
 
is there a problem with gb management or is it just tired?by the way this is not ment to be a "smart question" i am just interested as i dont know the ins and outs of the gb showjumping heirarchy.
 
For me, tired. There are so, so many very good younger riders out there who need some damn good motivation and inspiration - everyone in the SJ world knows and respects Marcus Fuchs for his career as an SJer and producer and would be excited by having him on their side - I just don't think that the team behind UK SJ excites or inspires anyone.
 
Italian riders have been quoted as saying that Marcus is strict with them and instilled more discipline, but just as important is the simple thing he did in putting his best quartet together. They had not done this until Dublin, hence the excellent performers, notably the current leader in the Individual were impossibly handicapped by the performances of the other team members. The attitude of the Italians has been a longstanding problem. I remember back in the 1970s, the great Raimondo d'Inzeo (who at the time was still competing) complaining that the younger riders with him were not interested in learning how to do better.
 
some fresh management for us would surly be a good thing (we cant do any worse!). we cant keep blaming it on lack of horsepower. after all the italians didn't have major changes in there horseand look at them. gd luck to them they deserve it
 
If only it were that easy! We could in fact have done a lot worse. I can't think of any obvious available alternatives to the team we had - just one or two who might have been tried in the Super League series. Championship horses are rare beasts indeed. What we do need is to increase the number of international shows in the UK, revive the profile of the sport which should make owners more willing and able to keep their horses in the UK, and to raise people's awareness of what is needed to compete at top level.

Imagine how disappointed the French must be having won the Super League series, but out of the medals here. Like us they were hit by injury - in their case it was their best horse and at the last minute, and the Irish also lost a probable top contender at the end of last week. That's the nature of the sport.
 
perhaps the reason we cant think of obvious alternatives is because we never see them out on the big circuit? amd talking of which i see Casino won at windsor on thursday night......
 
As you know, I did wonder about Casino being a possible ride for either John or Robert, but in all honesty I doubt that he would have gone any better than those we had. Might well have had a slightly better score in the speed as he has a long stride which Rosinus and Pom d'Ami don't. Unless John has changed his mind since, I know he found the horse somewhat enigmatic - very talented but not consistent. There's been little form from those comibnations competing at 4* CSIs and CSIOs suggesting that they could meet the challenges of stepping up to the very top level. I really wish it were otherwise.
 
would love to open a book on the duration of this 'Italian Miracle'. Would probably make a fortune
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. Italy has, in the past, been blessed by various good and serious trainers and I have had the honour to have been part of the teams as a groom. None have lasted and none of the training had any lasting effect on the teams as such. The Italians do not have the back up of owners who are willing to spend a fortune on valid horses and the riders are unable to keep any good horses sound enough or fresh enough to last more than a couple of seasons. There are a few who go on in time but they are as common as hens teeth. Horses in Italy are burned out before they begin and that is a fact.
Jean Paul Bardinet was brought in from Saumur to be CE for the Italian eventing team-he managed to scrape up a team and get some positive results from them but he left pulling his hair out at the over all lethargy of the whole Italian scene.
One of Italys best riders (sj) disappeared when his horse was pulled for a dope test-he has been grounded and rightly so. I feel sorry for Mr Fuchs but at least he should earn well and eat well for the duration
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the trouble is the same as that which affects the riders in the much maligned promotional leagues of which you have so low an opinion. horses and riders need to be tested on a big stage to get experience and improve. Luckily for the Italians they have several four and five star shows which they can go to by invitation even if technically not high enough at the rankings, so get experience of very big tracks like Rome, St Patriano, Arezzo and the GCT to name a few. All of the current italian team has been to at least a couple of these. We have hickstead. so sadly our riders who cannot afford to buy themselves wildcard entries into good shows rely on the selection process to get them where they need to go and perhaps we have not been diligent enough with this in the past.
I talked to team Hungary yesterday about another subject but in the course of the conversation we got onto their team performance and they said the reason they came was to give their riders the experience that they other wise wouldnt get being too low down the rankings to be invited to other big shows. Both Balazs Krucsco and henry kovacs (who is only about 22) have competed at 4* level with some success but they, like our riders, have to move away from home to do so. A spell in the promotional league would not hurt us at all as a show jumping nation because the 'high powered' riders would not want to go and we would have to try out other combinations. Which is exactly what has happened to the French. Didnt hurt the irish either the year before. I know tom ryan didnt have the best day yesterday, but he was discovered if you like, as a potential senior team rider, in Zagreb when the irish got back into the super league in 2007. He certainly jumped ok in dublin anyway.
 
I do not have a low opinion of the NC promotional league, but by its very nature is it of a lower standard. Nothing wrong with that. My argument is that if horses and riders don't cope well at that level they are highly unlikely to do so on the bigger stage. Please tell me which of ours who have been competing at 4* look ready to do the big classes at 5*.

As I wrote when we were discussing the mess the FEI made re-relegation, Norway, as has just been confirmed is one of the few teams which could be expected to survive in the Super League. But they don't have any strength in depth - their championship team selects itself. Austria would have a chance with leading veterans Hugo Simon and Tom Fruhmann but they choose not to represent the country now. Their World Cup successes and their team medal in the 1992 Olympics did not lead to greater success for Austrian SJ. Spain has been in and out of the Super League - they have many international shows at which to hone their skills, with no obvious improvement yet.
 
i havent been to many promotional league shows this year cos of my other commitments but last season Hannah Paul, Gemma Paterenoster, Ryan Prater for a start, all of who may well be found wanting at five star level but at this moment we will not find out will we?
as for your comments re other nations, you just are not getting the point are you. many of them cope very well at that level and then are totally floored on the rare occasions they get to a top class show because they do not have the experience to cope with the more technical bigger tracks. it is not because they lack ability or horsepower, though many in the lower leagues are forced to sell their better horses. I can think of two or three riders at the Europeans now who kick the butts of all comers on the rare occasions any of us venture in that direction but to those of you that dont know them better will have looked like beginners. Mainly because i should think, that this was the first 1.60 five star equivalent track any of them have ever jumped.
and i think that you are old enough to remember that before everythiong revolved round the rolex rankings which revolved entirely around money it was possible for riders in other places to get into good shows and develope and improve and compete with the best. Hugo Simon would be one seeing as you mentioned him, Joe Turi was another bet you can think of others.
Anyway, I just cant be bothered discusssing any of these matters with you anymore because much as i think you are the fountain of knowledge on showjumping, you are sadly out of touch with what is going on outside of this country. The basic results do not tell the whole story as the italians have ably demonstrated this week. The FEI rukes so favour the western nations it is a wonder anyone outside the super league even bothers attemping to better them selves.
 
Gemma has indeed done quite well, and Ryan has oodles of talent but Otage has been out of action, and he's lost other rides, so wasn't available for selection Hannah hasn't done much this year as far as I know and has sold a couple of her horses. And of course Charlotte Platt was given a chance last year and in La Baule this year, but her top horse is another on the sidelines.
I am also old enough to remember when there were no Rider Rankings, and when there were not nearly so many international shows throughout Europe. Hugo took Austrian nationality in the early 1970s because he found it hard to get into the German team which was even stronger then than it is now. I can also remember the mid 60s when Poland had a very decent team.
The GCT is very important and gives opportunities to the Middle Eastern riders, but I see no sign of any Eastern/Central European riders getting a chance to gain experience. Perhaps you should appeal to Jan Tops to help them.
Finally, just because I am not able to travel abroad now as I did every year for 20 years, it does not mean I am completely out of touch with what is happening away from these shores. I have no wish to fall out with you, but I am entitled to state my opinion, just as everyone else is.
 
In am failing to understand why you have dragged the GCT into this discussion. its premise is very clear and has no bias whatsoever. So dont be making little digs at it and Jan Tops particularly as the last time I looked the Ukraine was part of eastern europe.
as for the british riders we were not discussing who could have been selected for the team this week, what you asked was who had been showing form at four star level and who might be ready for a five star. I am sure if Freshman was about she could think of a few more names than the ones i already provided who have jumped in places like bratislava in the past.
 
You were the first one to mention GCT and I recognise its importance. Where was the dig? The only Ukrainian at GCT shows has been the very talented Brazilian who was "bought" for them relatively recently. Though the top 30 riders are entitled to compete, others are there by invitation. I merely asked whether Jan might invite other Eastern European riders.
 
only in the context of a big show which hosting national federations could send their home riders to ( in that case the italians).
as for the rest of your comments, usually i have alot of time for you and just spent sometime answering you more fully but i deleted it because you have got so many things wrong on this thread it was taking me all night.
For example, Cassio Rivetti has been riding for the Ukraine since i met him which was a fair while ago (at least 18 months) and was no more 'bought' than Peter Charles or Jamie Wingrave both of whom decided to ride for other nations when they got offered bettter opportunity than their country of birth could provide. You are making Cassio sound like a mercenary which is rubbish, he is a nice lad who got put into exactly the same position as Jamie, his nationality or his rides.
you asked me to give an eastern european example and I did but you still couldnt drop it.
also I have already explained how the GCT works, which you are conviniently ignoring. it does not invite anyone outside the top 30 or 40 (unless one of those riders declines to come then the next in the ranking is asked instead). The other invitations are by host federations (FEI rule) and sponsors but those are limited in the extreme. However if one of those happened to be Azbekistan, they would get exactly the same rights as one from France, Germany or the USA.
 
No offence was intended - I think you found a subtext in my post/s which was not there. I was in no way criticising Cassio anymore than I have ever criticised any rider (there have been quite a few over the years) for changing nationality and making the most of any opportunity arising. To me 18 months is relatively recent (our perception of time changes as we get older) and I believe Cassio was chosen to replace Gregory Wathelet who fell out with Mr Onyschenko, and reverted to riding for his home country Belgium. Mr O had wanted Steve Guerdat for his team, but Steve was in a position to be able to refuse to give up Swiss nationality. It is actually a compliment to GCT that I'd love to see it being more Global than it is at present - it would be great to have one of its events in East or Central Europe and give their riders a chance to compete in good classes for good prize money.
Incidentally the area in which W European nations are disadvantaged nowadays is Olympic qualification (this is a relatively new system) as its zone has far more strength in depth than the other zones.

Incidentally, I have just found the Promotional League standings on the FEI website, and as expected it is Norway and Spain ahead of the rest by a big margin with only 1 more event to come. Austria is 3rd having only contested 2 of the 11 competitions. France dominated the series.
 
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