"It's never been harder to find a reliable groom"

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Gypley

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I have just seen a post on Facebook about the recent article in H&H about finding a reliable groom.
The following comment was left in reply to this statement:

"it's never been harder to find a reliable groom"

Comment:
"because most employers are only prepared to pay meager wages - friends of mine, well qualified, are earning what I consider to be barely enough to live on. Conditions and work hours are often poor - over time often unpaid and employers OFTEN speak to and treat their staff appaulingly. I expect some backlash from this comment but this is fact - I no longer work in the industry I loved for these reasons. I also worked at one of the best equine establishments in the country...and was treated no differently. When the financial elitism leaves this sport and those that do it for the love of it prevail...then things will improve. At the moment it is full of stuck up pricks who actually think themselves 'better' than other people - to suggest that the equine industry is dickensian would certainly not be an injustice"

I can't help but agree with a lot of points this person has made. But I'm interested to hear what other people think. Do employers think too much of themselves? Are employees more bone idle than before ? Or is a case of respect being a two way street ?
 
I agree with that comment. I have a part time job at present working for a lovely lady, but I have worked for a lot of others that thought they were up there and the staff were at the bottom. I have always worked with horses for love and will happily do extra hours without a thought of extra pay providing I am treated fairly. It's when I've worked hard all day/week/month/year and still treated like dirt that I lose heart
 
From an employers point of view:
Yes, the wages are low, because that is the level of pay the industry is able to support. I simply can't afford to pay much over NMW, or I would have to raise livery prices to the level that would price me out of the market.
I would like to think I treat my staff fairly, certainly never shout or swear at them, always pay on time and never expect any overtime.
What I get in return though makes me sad at times.
Yes, it is incredibly difficult to find reliable, committed grooms.
 
A friend of mine went to work as a groom in Germany several years ago. She said grooms are highly paid and highly respected over there, but here there are too many people wanting to live the dream without having the necessary expertise. I don't think a lot of the colleges are turning out properly skilled grooms, maybe someone will put me right but many round here have very few qualifying conditions for equine courses. They are businesses and want students money, regardless.
 
Not sure if you've read the article, but there was a comment made from a 'top rider' that states one of her grooms was caught climbing out of the window in the middle of the night! Whilst this is grossly unprofessional on the employees part, I think the 'top rider' should consider what had driven this poor girl to do that in the first place! No matter how unhappy I was, I would still take the moral high ground and give my employer a written resignation and adequate notice.
Obviously there's good and bad in all industries, but i do think the equine industry should be better governed in terms of fair treatment to employees AND employers.
 
What Al found is people want to pay pennies for nothing. She managed to secure several employers who paid her rates and was in the position where she could turn away work. But if people want to pay £6/ hour, they need to accept that's not going to result in a high standard of groom or someone who keeps coming back when they get other offers.

Another problem I suppose is that a lot of the people willing to do the groom hours are looking for a starting point to launch a career in riding. If the opportunity then comes their way then they will up and leave...
 
Yes its difficult mostly because a lot of views are we know its poor wage but you love horses.

Wage was the reason I came out of working with horses. Ironically really when the word "equine" normally puts up the price of things.
 
I agree with the article, it is difficult to find decent hard working people who can do a decent job but I think its more people don't want to get their hands dirty and have an overinflated view of their ability.
 
JillA said:
A friend of mine went to work as a groom in Germany several years ago. She said grooms are highly paid and highly respected over there, but here there are too many people wanting to live the dream without having the necessary expertise. I don't think a lot of the colleges are turning out properly skilled grooms, maybe someone will put me right but many round here have very few qualifying conditions for equine courses. They are businesses and want students money, regardless.
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I think the equine colleges keep churning out people with fairly unrealistic idea what work in the industry involves. Without fail, every single one of them coming for a job interview here was under the impression that 40 minutes to skip out a deep littered stable is an acceptable speed, and somewhat surprised that when it's raining we put waterproofs on and carry on, not stay indoors...
 
Completely agree, and it's why I no longer work in the industry as the places I worked in put me right off.

Years ago I worked at a really big yard down in England (around 300 horses, celebs kept horses there and boss was a showjumper). Working conditions were terrible, they had no respect or regards for their staff in any aspect. I was kicked very severely in the back and ended up in A&E, yet was berrated, patronized and spoken to horrifically when I came back with the doctors note saying I needed at least a fortnight off due to my injury.
When I politely went to hand my notice in at a later date I was given a barrage of abuse and so left at 4am the next morning with no warning.

I've worked in smaller places where the standard of riding, horse care, tuition etc was so appalling your choice was to turn a blind eye or leave.

And of course the main issue in every single yard I've ever worked in is the bullying between staff members, no matter what your rank, or even knowledge.

The place I spent the most time in seems to have this thing about not wanting the staff to learn anything, they won't teach you, and god forbid you ask a senior member of staff for help, advice or tuition, you get belittled in front of everyone and never allowed to forget about the time you asked such a 'stupid' question. Unless you are at the top of the pecking order in that place you are treated like utter crap, have your confidence stripped away and made to BELIEVE you are crap, while the top dogs smirk on from the sidelines, relishing in the fact that you are so far below them.

Bullying at its best.

And don't get me started on how they treat the horses...

So yes, I agree with that comment. Although there are plenty good grooms out there, trouble is they have self respect so refuse to put up with these places, and rightly so.
 
martlin said:
I think the equine colleges keep churning out people with fairly unrealistic idea what work in the industry involves. Without fail, every single one of them coming for a job interview here was under the impression that 40 minutes to skip out a deep littered stable is an acceptable speed, and somewhat surprised that when it's raining we put waterproofs on and carry on, not stay indoors...
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I was stunned the other day to hear an instructor tell the girls on the NVQ that they would postpone their riding lesson if they wanted, due to the rain!It was hardly a downpour, my personal opinion is that if you're working properly, the rain should be a bit of relief!! (Unless temperatures are really low and it is torrential, but even then, waterproofs are the way to go!)

On a work experience placement at an eventing yard earlier this year, I was given the opportunity to go with the owner and head groom to view a horse that was about four hours away. I jumped at the chance as its always worth seeing what you can learn from others. I was on the yard by 6:30am (normal time was 8) to help with turning out and some quick skipping out before we left, but due to traffic (there and back) we didn't arrive back at the yard until 8:30pm. The owner told me that I was "an absolute star" purely because I stuck around for the next two hours to make sure all jobs get done.

Maybe it's just me, but that isn't right. I was there to do a job, and though I'm very glad I got the compliment, I would've done it anyway.
 
p87 said:
So yes, I agree with that comment. Although there are plenty good grooms out there, trouble is they have self respect so refuse to put up with these places, and rightly so.
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Hit the nail on the head

Having just given up grooming i wholeheartedly agree! i was very good at my job and reliable, i earnt barely enough to live on and their attitude towards me was that they were doing me a favour! basically it stunk! one of the parting blows was 'you should think yourself lucky i'd never pay another groom as much as i paid you' i was on barely £5ph and to add to that apparently i was only in it for the money and trying to get as much as i could! i was infact trying to get above minimum wage! few places are willing to pay for a good groom and when i had the opportunity to take a job working for a private family for very good money and a less stressful time consuming job, i wasnt brave enough :( unless something really changed in the industry i.e pay scales for experience (yeah right!) i wouldnt go back to it, i loved it when i first started but the job but peoples empty promises and the lonliness wore me down, they wanted an experienced groom for apprentice/WP wage, and when thats all your willing to pffer your turn over is going to be pretty high!
 
I have been lucky enough to work as a groom in Canada, the USA, New Zealand and here and for some really fantastic employers. In every job the work was tough, the hours far longer than legal, with little opportunity to eat or take a break. I never minded getting up at 4am or finishing scrubbing the lorry at 11pm when we got back from an event. I loved all my jobs and the reason I was so willing to work hard wasn't money but because my employers always knew when and how to say thank you. That little bit of appreciation really matters. Even better than that, when I was really flat out, stressed out and struggling, they knew when to get their hands dirty.

The one job I walked out on was where my boss was a vile alcoholic with relationship issues who screamed at me that I was 'just the *******ing groom' on a day when I had had a real emotional meltdown. Yes I may just be a groom but I also gave a first class science degree and am smart enough to know I deserve better than a guy who screams abuse and throws things.
 
Jinx94 said:
I was stunned the other day to hear an instructor tell the girls on the NVQ that they would postpone their riding lesson if they wanted, due to the rain!It was hardly a downpour, my personal opinion is that if you're working properly, the rain should be a bit of relief!! (Unless temperatures are really low and it is torrential, but even then, waterproofs are the way to go!)

On a work experience placement at an eventing yard earlier this year, I was given the opportunity to go with the owner and head groom to view a horse that was about four hours away. I jumped at the chance as its always worth seeing what you can learn from others. I was on the yard by 6:30am (normal time was 8) to help with turning out and some quick skipping out before we left, but due to traffic (there and back) we didn't arrive back at the yard until 8:30pm. The owner told me that I was "an absolute star" purely because I stuck around for the next two hours to make sure all jobs get done.

Maybe it's just me, but that isn't right. I was there to do a job, and though I'm very glad I got the compliment, I would've done it anyway.
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to add to what you are saying yes i agree with this to an extent, but with in reason. alot of places when they find out how willing reliable you are begin to take the piss

an event yard i worked on in the 'off season' over winter we would still be working 15 hour days finishing at close to 9pm every night and then would still have to go out at 11/12pm and do late night yard everynight with out fail. one night we did lates at 3am because we were at a dinner party with owners, what we did could have waited till morning tbh. i learnt alot and it was sometimes good fun. but it would take alot for me to consider grooming again, been stung and taken advantage of far too many times!
 
I can see both sides to this.

Yes in general I think that grooms are not paid enough and its not a job that you do for life. I have to say all of my jobs were great and not badly paid, plus I was treated well by all my employers generally, but there was very little holiday, no pension, and not enough money to have a life and pay a mortgage, so I got out of horses after a few years..

I can also see the side from your average employer who run yards - they don't make a fortune and there isn't money to pay huge wages. However a lot of the yards I worked on over the years belonged to rich people and they were their hobbies. I was only talking to my husband about it when we were down in hunting country, saying that my hunting boss at the time (private bloke's yard) spent more on each hunter he owned and also on his hunt subscriptions and caps than he did on my annual salary!

And finally, yes I do agree that the fact that grooms are coming out of huge "universities" nowadays with all singing all dancing facilities leaves them without the ability to adapt to smaller not singing not dancing yards that don't shut at 5pm.

The whole industry needs to change, but it never will as it is fed by a million keen teenagers who "just wanna work with horses" (I was one of them) and who will put up with it for a few years before growing up and seeing the light.
 
I agree with quite a few of the above comments on this thread.
I've left the equine industry, as have many of my friends, partly due to poor pay, but mainly because of the lack of respect that is shown to grooms.
I've heard some real horror stories of broken bones and being treated as inconsiderate and selfish as a result!

But I can also see things from the other side as I've seen some grooms with a truly shocking attitude who don't care if a horse is left without hay or water all day/night, because they've finished for the day and "its not their job"!!!
 
Technically I'm a groom, but all the horses left a couple of years ago! I have a permanent, full time job for a good boss so I'm still here gardening, painting, looking after other animals, etc. I'd love to go back to a horse job but most of what's on offer is part time and insecure or a life-consuming, all hours commitment that couldn't work with a horse of my own, my OH and a dog. It a shame really, I think I'm a good groom, reliable and obsessed with the horses, but you've got to have a job/life balance and most grooms jobs just seem none starters to me for one reason or another. Grooming is full of responsibility, skill, stress, time consumption, and can be emotionally draining. Not grooming is actually far, far easier, usually for more money!
 
I think there are positives and negatives on both sides. There are some employers in the horse world who are just horrific and some who are lovely. I worked for a riding school when I first left school as a wp, the other staff in general were lovely, good facilities, nice horses, well run, hardly ever expected to work overtime, good training, etc. I had a great time there. However, when I first started the Head Girl terrified me, she was rude, intimidating and made no bones about screaming at people - I caught my hand in a horse's bridle once when he spooked and pulled back. I went to her and told her I had really hurt myself and I was worried I had broken my finger. She told me I had to stay until the end of the day. The next day I was referred to a&e by my gp - ended up having to have surgery on my finger, a metal plate and screws put in to keep a tendon in place and 2 months off work :(

Having said that, most people/places I have come into contact with have been lovely. I have come into contact with a number of equine college students and many of them haven't filled me with confidence. I'm sure it's not true of all but a lot of those I have met have no intention of working with horses or no idea of the hard graft involved. Grooming is really a job you do for the love and young people need to be prepared for this.
 
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Think it is the same of everything in life good and bad in equal proportions I have had terrible experiences when offering placement for youngsters finishing equine degrees, Have had my ideas plagerised by others for their dissertation to gain their degree, had students about to qualify that couldnt hack out, without a foot soldier, on a safe and dopey pony. I have also seen some of these students used and abused at one point even stepping in at a stud and telling the owner that he was unreasonable to expect said student to get ponies and dogs ready at 5 am and still be the one to take the dogs for their midnight run while he ate his cooked breakfast in the morning or sat and had a drink in the evening
Then again I have never asked anyone to do anything I wont do along side them and have always tried very hard to make sure they are safe and comfortable with what they are doing.
 
Rather like KatPT, I've had a lot of good experiences working in the industry although, tbf, I've not been a groom in the UK. I don't have any illusions about the industry though and have had my share of hair raising ordeals!

I will disagree that it's a class issue, although maybe that is a peculiarly British problem. By and large the best jobs have been with people who ran their business like, well, a business and had sufficient income and organisation to support it properly. Some of the really shocking behaviour I've seen has been from people who really cannot afford the business and somehow expect their employees to sacrifice for their dreams/delusions with no hope of recompense. It's one thing to take crap in a job but if you don't even have the wherewithal to DO your job then it's pointless.
 
A friend of mine is an international show jumper. He treats his grooms with respect but still has to be firm with them so that things get done. He provides first class accomodation for them, all clothing for the yard & show duties & pays them a good wage. He says that this is the only way to retain a groom that really knows their job & can handle the horses he has. He also needs them to be HGV drivers as they need to transport the horses all over Europe & the UK. They need to be very good riders as they have to exercise his horses when he's away, many of these horses are worth 6 figure sums so they must know what they're doing. They must also be knowledgeable enough to run the yard when he's not there. These people are hard to find & will be poached off you by other riders if you don't treat them well.

These grooms are few & far between & are valued members of his team. When he has a vacancy it can take a ong time to find a replacement. He gets wanabees fresh from college or from working weekends at riding schools applying & clearly they are not suitable. The most amazing thing is that these applicants don't realise how unsuitable they are to do the job.

There are quality grooms about but if you want one & you want to keep them you must be prepared to pay them & give them great conditions.
 
My sons girlfiend works as a groom, she is paid below minimum wage and will be sacked if she doesn't take it. She mucks out 30 stables a day - now I know she is younger than me but that workload would kill me. Her boss treats her and the others like dirt.
She is hanging in there as she hopes to get a better job come the spring.
She is talking about giving up, now she is a good rider and a hard worker but what she is doing would put most people off.
 
Well I'm going to really show my age here........ coz some of us can remember a time when if you had a "good groom" they were worth more than gold - and that meant they'd be a highly valued team member in any yard. A lot of the old-school grooms were also known as "ostlers" and memories of grooms "strapping" the horses after a day's hard hunting and whistling between their teeth as they did so; was I guess, a pretty common sight in those days. Nowadays your modern generation have never in their wildest imaginations heard of "strapping"!!!!

This is the problem I think - basically its a lack of respect for a very old skill which was handed down from generations not awarded on a paper certificate; in bygone days no good yard had a "bad" groom, and vice versa. And if you had a good groom they by golly you'd turn yourself inside out to keep them; and you'd go to the ends of the earth to get a good one; and if someone had a good groom they'd tend to stay with that yard or family and not move around. If a yard had a good groom it was a matter of pride and they were highly sought.

What a pity things have changed.

Alas times have changed.
 
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite said:
This is the problem I think - basically its a lack of respect for a very old skill which was handed down from generations not awarded on a paper certificate; in bygone days no good yard had a "bad" groom, and vice versa. And if you had a good groom they by golly you'd turn yourself inside out to keep them; and you'd go to the ends of the earth to get a good one; and if someone had a good groom they'd tend to stay with that yard or family and not move around. If a yard had a good groom it was a matter of pride and they were highly sought.

What a pity things have changed.

Alas times have changed.
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Totally agree. Just because someone has a piece of paper to say they can do a job doesn't necessarily mean they can do it WELL. Just passing the mark by the skin of their teeth is just not good enough in this industry. And like others have said, the colleges and Uni's are churning these students out like there's no tomorrow, all with a vision of going to play with ponies, and having a complete meltdown at the prospect of real, hard work.
 
I would think a lot of it is down to working conditions. I used to work in a pub. Speaking to landlord, he was moaning that people wouldn't work extra hours for free.

My thoughts were you expect me to slave away in your pub, whilst you sit on your back side and do nothing (which he would do).

One evening we had a request to stay open very late for some people coming back from a function. There was at least an hours gap between last local leaving and the late arrivals. It had been a busy night, the till was stuffed full of money, and no safe to put it in. Someone was coming to take over from me to cover the late shift, landlord said couldn't afford to pay two people. However person that took me off is a very good friend and I couldn't leave him in the pub all on his own with all that money. Didnt get paid a penny.
 
A good groom is most definitely worth their weight in gold however many people coming into the industry have unrealistic expectations of what they should paid and an inflated opinion of their own abilities. In recent years I have found that many people now view working in the industry as similar to a 9 - 5 office job. I would never suggest that staff should be expected to continuously work unpaid overtime however IMO the odd extra 5 -10 mins every now and again is part and parcel of working with horses.

This industry does require fitness, a certain mindset and a degree of toughness especially in winter and for many people, no matter how much they like horses, find this just isn't for them. A decent groom will take pride in their work and gain satisfaction from a job well done which a good employer will acknowledge and appreciate. Sadly many young people seem to consider themselves above many entry level jobs within the industry - many want to be competition riders / trainers and are just waiting to have their hidden talent discovered by someone with a string of horses (and a lorry) ready and waiting to go. Dependant on which area of the industry you are looking at a few years of relevent experience, good references (and in certain jobs qualifications) are usually required to climb up the equine career ladder and command a better wage. In years gone by these entry level jobs jobs would have been working pupil or trainee positions with very little remuneration. I'm not suggesting the industry should return to these days but life was much harder in many jobs then and there was little regulation in place. Rightly so these days most employers pay at least NMW, give legal, paid holiday entitlement, give suitable breaks within the working day etc which is a far cry from from the industry in my youth.

The sad fact of life is that most equine businesses cannot afford to offer substantially higher wages - their income is derived from what clients are willing to pay - and many riding schools and livery yards would find themselves out of business as clients just wouldn't pay the extra which would allow them to raise staff wages significantly. Despite being an employer I'm sure no one I have employed would swop places when they realise I only "earn" a small fraction of what they are paid. I would love to pay staff more, sadly it's not feasible. On the other hand I have been fortunate to have some excellent employees over the years and have done my best to let them know they are appreciated, helped and encouraged them with furthering their skills, provided them with horses to ride within their working hours where possible, treated them respectfully, fairly and honestly and been sympathetic when they have had problems in their personal lives. In return I have expected them to work to a acceptable standard, behave professionally and be honest and fair with me as an employer. I do not consider phoning up late on the night before they are due to work claiming they haven't organised childcare when they have had several days to do so or let me know they are having problems acceptable. Neither is leaving work or not turning up due to a family crisis or illness which subsequently turns out to be completely ficticious. These types of incident understandably make employers wary.

Sadly, I don't know what the answers are to the problems seen in the industry these days; there are obviously both good and bad employers and staff, getting them to find each other seems to be a problem. What has to be realised is that the horse industry is rarely glamorous but can be fulfilling and rewarding for those that are reliable and prepared to work hard however for most a large salary is unlikely in the forseeable future.
 
I think there are good jobs out there, it is often a case of finding them.
Recently someone was looking for someone to do their horses while they went away for several months. They wanted them done 7 days a week, exercised etc, and were horrified when I quoted about £280 a week! If you look at what you have to pay a freelance to come in and do them, it was cheap.
I do some freelancing, and tbh, most people are happy to pay upwards of £9 an hour, but it is obviously less secure than having a full time job.
For those who say they can never keep staff I would say you have to ask why. You may be in a very expensive part of the country, which will make life more difficult, but if your staff are climbing out of the windows rather than handing in their notice that is as much a reflection on you. I once worked on a racing yard, and we had a young girl there who really was lovely, tried very hard, and was improving at a serious rate of knots. The boss was a complete idiot, and I'm afraid I suggested that she leave one Saturday afternoon while he was away racing, rather than hand in her notice, because I didn't want to have to witness the barrage of abuse I knew she would receive if she handed in her notice!
 
If you can not run a business profitably without breaking the law and not pay the minim wage you should not be running one. Your employees are not there to subsidise your clients life style. If the numbers don't add up why should the employees suffer?
I left school at 16 to work with horses and although I only got the princely sum of £3 a week, I was well fed, housed and treated with respect and learnt just how much I didn't know in a safe environment. I soon realised I had not the connexions or the talent to make a career out of it. The Lady that I worked for was used to handling staff, there was just her and her husband but she employed 6-8 people, she was used to dealing with people a friendly firm manner although it was not a professional yard.
I think of a lot of people who run equestrian business fall in to it, they really just want something that will maintain their lifestyle and a lot of people who work for them are the same, they do not really want to be a groom they want an opportunity to ride daily and perhaps ride something they could not afford to buy. Neither is compatible with a good working relationship.
I have a small yard and have employed someone freelance and have also interviewed people with little or no idea how to handle horses even though they may own their own horse so I can well understand a YO wanting to pay training wages even though the employee may think they are competent.
I think anyone who is thinking of being employed as a groom should ask for a job description in which the hours are fully explained, if training is offered it should be in the contract and actually done. I would also make sure you employer has employer liability insurance, they should display the certificate and you are on the PAYE system. Over time there will be even less young people wanting to go into the industry, why on earth would you want to get a degree or training when are unlikely to recoup any of the expense?
 
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