I've been such an idiot

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Lucy B

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Arhhh
I feel like such an idiot - for those of you remember about a week ago I was asking about stable hand wages for my fairly large yard. Well I don't normally go down on a Saturday but I thought I'd pop down and give the two new employees a hand. Well it was 9am when I got down - the two employees were there and they had just finished sorting out the horses, but the manager was nowhere to be seen.

I asked the two of them where she was and the guy looked at me as though I'd grown another head and said the manager comes in at 6.30-7.30 to do the racehorses and then normally leaves until returning at 3.00ish (half an hour before I arrive), to make sure everything's okay.

I was beyond mad at this point, I tried calling the manager three times and with no luck. You see, she's supposed to start work at 6.30 and finish at 5.30. During this time she's supposed to help out at the yard and organise the various comings and goings, but it turns out these two organise most of the routine visits anyway:mad:

I pay her for a full days wage and after waiting till 1pm I had had enough so I came home. I have no idea what to do now, she's obviously been using my lack of experience (I'm an experienced rider but not a manager) to her own benefit, and I feel like such a fool for trusting her:(.

Sorry for the rant, I just needed to get it off my chest *sigh*
 
One simply cannot get the staff these days....
I do feel for you - I'm a real whimp with things like this. Best thing is to have her on your territory. Give her a verbal warning or a written one?
 
She is taking the pee, the thing that worries me the most about it is that you cant get hold of her, what would happen in an emergency. I reckon she is one for the bin!
 
Get to the yard 10 mins before you know she is due back and just watch her face as she sees you and knows she has been caught! Then ask in a very calm manor if everything is ok and you are sure its not her normal pratice to leave a job she is being paid to do. Then carry on to say how happy you are with the stable hands nd how one day you are sure thay will be ready to move up to manager!! Just stay calm as she will be un sure of your next move
 
Do you have a contract of work for her. If you do, and it states her hours of work and responsibilities you can tackle them for abandoning their duties. Not sure whether you can class as gross misconduct, but should be able to.... Which I believe could be immediate dismissal.
If you dont have a contract get rid, you're never going go trust he'd again. However if you decide to keep, you need to define her roles / responsibilities, her hours of work, sick & holiday terms etc. Your other staff should also have something similar, plus it will help them clearly understand where the buck stops etc.
If you dismiss them it may be worth taking some legal advise, you don't want unfair dismissal against you for not following verbal, written, final warning steps.... Although gross misconduct can be immediate.
Hope you get it all sorted, total *iss take, and shag good staff to pick up and run things in her absence
 
Go back now & wait for her.
Take her aside away from earshot of anyone else & ask her to decribe what she has been doing today from arriving on the yard this morning.

Ask her why she has not remained on the yard, as per contract.

Firmly & politely - without getting stroppy/upset etc, ensure you let her know that:
You are deeply unhappy that she has not been at work today for the hours set.
That you had not been contacted by her with any explanation as to why she took time off, neither was she contactable during working hours.
SO:
Therefore she is in breach of contract and you (unfortunately) are giving her a verbal/written warning (your choice) for dereliction of duty and for her not providing a duty of care to the yard, the horses and clients as laid down in her employment description.

The final part won't be up for discussion, but you MUST follow a reasonable disciplinary proceedure for her abandoning her workplace without due notice or contacting her employer immediately.

Good luck (if make my blood boil when folk are taken for a ride! :mad:)
 
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If you are going to take her down the disciplinary route, you must do this correctly. Whilst you may have just grounds for taking action, if you don't follow the correct procedure you run the risk of losing a tribunal claim.
Please take advice. If nothing else you should log onto the ACAS website which has good basic advice on employment procedures.

If its really clear what her hours of work are then you probably have good grounds to formally deal with this. It would also be good to take notes of what others have said to you in terms of the hours your manager has worked.

If you do nothing else you must clarify hours or work and any other expectations. Whilst you hope that you can trust people, (and with many you absolutely can) unless you spell things out in a job description then you can't assume that they would do what you expect them. (and on the other hand, if you have someone who is doing a fantastic job but you are never there to witness it or get feedback from others, then how can you thank them!)

Hope all goes well.
 
millimoo said:
OMG sorry about the word in the last sentence of my previous post .... Predictive text on my I-phone - I'm blushing!!! So sorry
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bahaha :D thats too funny !!! :D (sorry!!)



OP sack her.... and before you do - turn up 10 mins before shes due (like another poster suggested).... :)
 
Thanks so much for the suggestions - I did go back and wait for her - it was one of those classic TV situations, unfortunately I was in no way feeling smug at the time.

I took her aside and told her that I was very angry about this (after an oppurtunity for her to give a reason why), and that we would speak again in the morning when I had deceided what to do.

I feel pretty good about confronting her, and I definitely want to fire her, but how do I do this legally? I've had a look at the contract but it is only about wages, holidays and accomodation. I really am a fool, the hours and responsibilities were all verbal - is it really illegal for me to fire her?

i'll check the ACAS website and see what If that gives me anymore information
 
Hi Lucy.

Has she been employed for more than 1 year? If so she has employment rights (so could bring an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal)

If she has I advise you:

1. give her a letter inviting her to a disciplinary hearing. The letter should state the reasons for the meeting, that the allegation consitutes gross misconduct and the possible outcome may be dismissal. It should also state that she has the right to be accompanied by a trade union rep (if she is in TU) or work colleague (if any of them agree to accompany her), I suggest you give her 24 hours min notice.

2. hold meeting, explain why your unhappy, ask her some questions and give her time to put her mitigation forward.
adjourn and consider what you want to do. If you decide to dismiss her advise her of this and that as this is gross misconduct she is dismissed with immedate effect and no notice. (I think that being AWOL is gross misconduct, you are in effect stealing from your employer) STAY CALM. Do not get into a debate/row.

3. make sure you put the outcome in writing and state that she can appeal the decision in writing. If you dismiss you must pay any accrued but untaken annual leave and pay upto dismissal date.

If she has less than a year you should still follow this process but if you dont and just tell her to naff off it is less risky. (than if she has 1yr+ service)
Acas have letters you can use. :0) good luck.x
 
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Lynds said:
Hi Lucy.

Has she been employed for more than 1 year? If so she has employment rights (so could bring an employment tribunal for unfair dismissal)

If she has I advise you:

1. give her a letter inviting her to a disciplinary hearing. The letter should state the reasons for the meeting, that the allegation consitutes gross misconduct and the possible outcome may be dismissal. It should also state that she has the right to be accompanied by a trade union rep (if she is in TU) or work colleague (if any of them agree to accompany her), I suggest you give her 24 hours min notice.

2. hold meeting, explain why your unhappy, ask her some questions and give her time to put her mitigation forward.
adjourn and consider what you want to do. If you decide to dismiss her advise her of this and that as this is gross misconduct she is dismissed with immedate effect and no notice. (I think that being AWOL is gross misconduct, you are in effect stealing from your employer) STAY CALM. Do not get into a debate/row.

3. make sure you put the outcome in writing and state that she can appeal the decision in writing. If you dismiss you must pay any accrued but untaken annual leave and pay upto dismissal date.

If she has less than a year you should still follow this process but if you dont and just tell her to naff off it is less risky. (than if she has 1yr+ service)
Acas have letters you can use. :0) good luck.x
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This is the best piece of advice.....

Shocking, let us know the outcome of it all!
 
Right,
first things-Is there enough work to justify paying someone to be there when two people are managing without the manager?
Are you sure it was crystal clear that she had to actually be on site/contactable and not just ensure all jobs were done?
What did she say when you caught her?
 
SusieT said:
Right,
first things-Is there enough work to justify paying someone to be there when two people are managing without the manager?
Are you sure it was crystal clear that she had to actually be on site/contactable and not just ensure all jobs were done?
What did she say when you caught her?
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Okay
Question 1 - I don't think so, like I said I'm no good at this managing stuff so I trusted her to sort it but obviously it doesn't seem to be necessary at all.

Question 2 - It was a verbal contract, which is what is complicating legally
firing her. Though in the written contract it does say she has to be available at all times, so I guess being contactable is just that, so yeah - that part is crystal clear. Though honestly I think I was paying more than most managers get, so what did she think she was supposed to be doing? - this frustrates me so much, but I have always made it crystal clear verbally that she has to be on site during her work hours.

Question 3 - she said that her daughter had called her and was having a problem so she needed to go, when I asked her if her daughter called everyday she didn't say anything. So I went on to say that I was really angry about it and we'd talk again in the morning - then I left.
 
I dont think you need to get too concerned with whether her contract says she should be there or not. My view is this is an 'implied' term in any 'contract if employment' (written or verbal)

e.g my contract says I have to work 39 hours and my location is the address of the company i work at. My contract does not say I have to be at that address for 39 hours. but I do. This is an 'implied' term. (E.g Common bloody sense, and doesnt need to be written down.)

If you decide not to dismiss her because its too complicated, then perhaps you could make her redundant instead... since you clearly dont need her!! PM me if you want some advice. (I am an HR Manager and know my stuff!)
 
Lynds said:
I dont think you need to get too concerned with whether her contract says she should be there or not. My view is this is an 'implied' term in any 'contract if employment' (written or verbal)

e.g my contract says I have to work 39 hours and my location is the address of the company i work at. My contract does not say I have to be at that address for 39 hours. but I do. This is an 'implied' term. (E.g Common bloody sense, and doesnt need to be written down.)

If you decide not to dismiss her because its too complicated, then perhaps you could make her redundant instead... since you clearly dont need her!! PM me if you want some advice. (I am an HR Manager and know my stuff!)
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Very good advice from Lynds, Oz
 
employment law is a minefield. Legally she should have had a contract and a copy of your discipinary procedure (amongst other things). Rather than firing her outright you may be better suspending her on full pay and inviting her to a disciplinary meeting. I would also advise speaking to a solicitor who specialises in employment law. We sacked someone last year for stealing, we had proof, he and his colleague admitted it - and paid back a small amount of the stolen monies, and we went through the whole process by the book but he still took us to industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal. This process cost him nothing as he was 'unemployed' and was given legal aid. We had to pay legal fees.
 
TJP said:
employment law is a minefield. Legally she should have had a contract and a copy of your discipinary procedure (amongst other things). Rather than firing her outright you may be better suspending her on full pay and inviting her to a disciplinary meeting. I would also advise speaking to a solicitor who specialises in employment law. We sacked someone last year for stealing, we had proof, he and his colleague admitted it - and paid back a small amount of the stolen monies, and we went through the whole process by the book but he still took us to industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal. This process cost him nothing as he was 'unemployed' and was given legal aid. We had to pay legal fees.
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That is SO wrong, typical of this stupid country these days, I hope the case didn't go in his favour?
Oz
 
Oh My God!
I read this last night but didnt reply as all the advice given was better than my knee jerk "sack the lazy *****!".... but I felt I had to reply now seeing some of the replies...
Suspend on full pay? Disciplinary procedures? Meetings re conduct etc??? If I was paid to be on site between x and y, but naffed off for half that time I would expect to be thrown - bodily - off the yard!!
To me, its simple, she is stealing money off you by skimping the time she actually spends on the yard vs the money she claims/is paid; end of! A thief is sacked and has no comebacks! How can anyone think that they would get away with that??
Sorry, *slight* rant there!!
Hope it has all gone well for you OP, any update? x
 
Wouldn't you have a case for instant dismissal for gross misconduct, in that she abandoned her work, was not contactable and did not inform you that she needed to go home ?

Blimey, at my old job, the contract stated that staff would be dismissed instantly if they had cigarettes on the premises.
 
So it isn't illegal for me to fire her? I just don't want her coming back at me with a tribunal as I really don't want to be paying all the law fees. This is so confusing, I'm going to try and call my soliciter today and see what she thinks, I just want this to be over and done with, and most importantly her gone!!!
 
Is your contract clear? Because the 'manager' is working standard racing hours. Everyone in racing works in the mornings, has the middle of the day off and then comes back to do evening stables. That is totally standard practice.

Also, if as you say she is meant to start at 6.30am and finish at 5.30pm then she's working an 11 hour day!?!! Is that what she's contracted to do?
 
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boxcarhorse said:
Is your contract clear? Because the 'manager' is working standard racing hours. Everyone in racing works in the mornings, has the middle of the day off and then comes back to do evening stables. That is totally standard practice.

Also, if as you say she is meant to start at 6.30am and finish at 5.30pm then she's working an 11 hour day!?!! Is that what she's contracted to do?
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There are six racing horses but there are 18 other horses too, so it's not just a race yard. It has always been a verbal contract for the hours working - but if you knew her salary you would realise she was being paid for more than mucking out six horses
 
I would go off what others have said regarding the little madam.
I would also start looking at the employment and rewriting peoples contracts for the future. Or hiring someone who knew both sides of the business and able to help you move the yard forward. If you aren't into running the yard itself, then I would employ someone who had a head for horses, employment and possibly accounts too.
Good luck
 
If you employed the manger for less than six months, I think you can just end her straight away. Check with someone who knows, I would phone up Career groom or Yard and groom, say you are looking for a new manager, and ask them if they know someone who can advise you on your current situation.
 
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