Jean Luc Cornill & Chazot ADD OPINIONS HERE,NOT MICHEN'S TREA

[npage123]

I'm starting this tread as it transpired that there were many people on here that had strong opinions on the way that Jean Luc Cornill started and strainging and proceeds with Chazot's training.

So I'm hoping everyone will now comment on THIS threat rahter on Michen's, as it wasn't an appropriate place to talk about Chazot on MIchen's thread.

So feel free - anyone of those who would still like to further critisize Jean Luc Cornill.

I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'not as quick to judge, and not the expert that a lot of people on here seems to be. I'm reading though loads and loads of Cornill's scientific information at the moment (which is not ease to understand in my little brain) before I'll have a clearer picture of what I'm hoping, at the end of it, will call one of the great horsemen of our time.

 

[tallyho!]

I'm starting this tread as it transpired that there were many people on here that had strong opinions on the way that Jean Luc Cornill started and strainging and proceeds with Chazot's training.

So I'm hoping everyone will now comment on THIS threat rahter on Michen's, as it wasn't an appropriate place to talk about Chazot on MIchen's thread.

So feel free - anyone of those who would still like to further critisize Jean Luc Cornill.

I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'not as quick to judge, and not the expert that a lot of people on here seems to be. I'm reading though loads and loads of Cornill's scientific information at the moment (which is not ease to understand in my little brain) before I'll have a clearer picture of what I'm hoping, at the end of it, will call one of the great horsemen of our time.

I totally agree and indeed thought about starting a new thread myself. I couldn't believe Chazot would appear on such a thread... there was no relevance that I could see whatsoever.

 

[ycbm]

in the video which was pointed to on the other thread, I saw a horse in real pain who should not have had a rider on his back. If work was required to sort his issues, then I think that it should at that point in time have been unridden work. I find it a very disturbing video to watch. The man is clearly a great rider, but I don't agree with what he is doing on that particular video, even if the horse turned out well in the end.

 

[npage123]

I agree that a horse with physical inadqaucies / pain etc should ideally not be ridden, but considering the extrodinary lenghts that Jean Luc Cornille goes through to diagnosis problems with his horses,and adapting the rehabilitation proicess accordingly, a short screen shot online should only be seen as a glimpse in the whole of the rehabilitation process. It isn't clear which video clip you are referring to, but there's no point on judging the horse's way of going and rider's skill without knowing the bigger picture.

Don't know if you've taken some time to read up on him online?

This is an exctract from him homepage on his website Sience In Motion (that name alone gives the impression that they do take things seriously)

"The Science of Motion is a new approach to therapy, which, instead of treating the pathological changes, (the damages) is addressing the kinematics abnormalities causing the pathological changes. It would seem at first that the approach would be essentially preventive, but the successes of the therapeutic approach into fields where other therapies were ineffective underline the capacity of the horse’s physique to heal efficiently or, as it is the case with kissing spine, to live with the problem, as long as the source of the abnormal stress has been corrected.

Every horse moves differently and since none move perfectly, especially with a rider on their back, even minor defects in gait can eventually result in lameness. As with human athletes, careful analysis of how a horse moves and the use of an individualized training program can both enhance performance and rehabilitate injuries, including those resulting in chronic lamenesses. The Science of Motion is a new approach to training and therapy, which is based upon identifying and correcting the specific gait abnormalities inherent in each horse. This approach was developed by Jean Luc Cornille, an international level Three-Day Event rider and trainer, who has extensively studied equine movement. His skill, experience and research has allowed him to perfect methods that can be used to correct the imperfections of gait that inhibit a horse from reaching its full athletic potential and often lead to lameness. The approach developed as the Science of Motion has been successfully utilized to rehabilitate many different chronic disabilities including severe cases of navicular disease and kissing spine."

As I said before, they are friendly friendly people and would happily answer your questions/comments via their website of via facebook.

I do understand YCBM that you're main concern is with the horse's welfare and that you don't want him to be in pain. The little that I know so far about this trainer is that he is trying to point out that horses at the highest level of competition is trying their best as asked by their rider, but they are in pain for one reason or another, and he's addressing these issues as much as possible.

 

[SpringArising]

I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'not as quick to judge

Surely if you don't want to criticise him don't start a thread with the specific intent of allowing people to criticise him?

+ Maybe he was in pain and maybe he wasn't. You can't make that diagnosis from watching one rear. I've have lots of horses who would have been "in pain" every ten minutes given some of their behaviours. Some horses just DO, because they can. Not everything is about pain.

 

[ycbm]

I do understand YCBM that you're main concern is with the horse's welfare and that you don't want him to be in pain. The little that I know so far about this trainer is that he is trying to point out that horses at the highest level of competition is trying their best as asked by their rider, but they are in pain for one reason or another, and he's addressing these issues as much as possible

I haven't read up on the rider and maybe I ought to, but if I am reading you right, their training consists of finding ways to get horses to work on in spite of being in pain. That's certainly what I see in the video of Chazot rearing, and I find it very uncomfortable to watch. If horses at the highest level are in pain, then shouldn't we stop riding them at the highest level, not train them that they work on because they can't escape it?

I'm just off now to check if they have a website, I don't do Facebook.

 

[ester]

website

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/

 

[ycbm]

website

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/

Thanks Ester. I've had a brief read and clearly the man has some very good ideas. That doesn't, however, make him incapable of making mistakes, and it doesn't change my view that he is not right to be riding Chazot in the video of him rearing multiple times. I also find it a bit odd to produce videos claiming that his approach cures kissing spines featuring a horse with only one back lesion (which is not common, ime) and navicular, which we all know can be cured in most horses by removing the shoes and a program of foot conditioning work. And I wonder what on earth the body workers of the show jumper were playing at not to realise that pain was causing the horse to refuse to jump longer and lower over water.

Unfortunately, I don't feel motivated enough by what I've seen so far to spend fifty dollars per video finding out what his explanations are.

 

[npage123]

Surely if you don't want to criticise him don't start a thread with the specific intent of allowing people to criticise him?

+ Maybe he was in pain and maybe he wasn't. You can't make that diagnosis from watching one rear. I've have lots of horses who would have been "in pain" every ten minutes given some of their behaviours. Some horses just DO, because they can. Not everything is about pain.

This was my full reply at number 314 on the previous Michen tread, when I was responding to a message from Speedyfluff, which you've quoted only a small phrase from.

Speedyfluff - I also thought there was something not quite right with the horse's off hind. I think he's an 18h TB ex-racehorse being retrained. At some point he had 4 months off due to abcesses in 3 different hooves, and during that time off he became very stiff all over - whether this happened recently and the stiffness is still there and showing in the hindlegs, I don't know. I see what you mean about the horse's way of going and I do agree the horse doesn't look comfortable and well rounded in his way of going, but I don't feel knowledgeable enough to comment on this person's riding/handling of the horse. I'm at the moment trying to learn more about the rider's training principles and the horse's background, and this may shed some light on why the horse is going the way he is. Regarding him not wearing a riding hat, my take on that is the person's background and current riding work is in a part of the world where it's not the norm to wear a hat, regardless of what horse you're going to ride or what style.

The absolutely last thing that I intended with providing video links on Jean Luc Cornill and Chazot, was for people on here to critisize them. I apologise if that was not clear in the sentence where I have said what you quoted "I personally wouldn't criticise him one bit as I'm not as quick as juick to judge'. I'm not as quick to judge as I know my own limitations when it comes to when it comes to certain aspects of horses, being rehabilitation, breeding, reschooling, etc.)

What I was trying to say all along is that Chazot is another tricky horse, but he has trainers/owners who are doing the best they can for the horse, and there are plenty of info available him online. INCLUDING if you feel to ask him questions or challenge his way of training, get in contact with him rather than slating him on a public forum.

Take that lovely video of the girl taking her horse for a dressage test which had quite a few hiccups, and then in the shame video showing her and the horse doing GP. If only the 1st section was posted on here, I'm sure there would have been a lot of nasty comments, amongst the kind and encouraging comments. We really do something need to look at the better bigger and not be so quick to judge.

Fair enough, once you've researched Jean Luc Cornill and have your facts, then no-one will tell you that you're wrong to dismiss his training methods.

Lastly, can I just say that an to time was my intention to start any arguments with anyone, and sorry if it had come across like that.

 

[npage123]

One thing that I really do not understand is where is saying that 'long and low', my interpretation at the start and end of the training session during warm-up and cool-up, is in fact not relaxing to the horse and not stretching them over the neck?

He has made available some videos and diagrammes and things but I really find it hard to get to the bottom of it.

 

[Goldenstar]

There is or should I saw was because it's pretty well debunked now a school of thought that said allowing horses to work long and low had no benefit and in fact was to the detriment of the training .
I know from my experience using working long and low correctly as part of the training is very good for horses .
For me you only have to feel a trained horse 'asking' for the stretch after a hard piece of work or a young one suddenly 'find ' it's rhythm as it finds how to take the rein forward to know how much they appreciate it .

 

[Goldenstar]

Surely if you don't want to criticise him don't start a thread with the specific intent of allowing people to criticise him?

+ Maybe he was in pain and maybe he wasn't. You can't make that diagnosis from watching one rear. I've have lots of horses who would have been "in pain" every ten minutes given some of their behaviours. Some horses just DO, because they can. Not everything is about pain.

I was not looking at the rear I was looking at the way of going .

 

[tallyho!]

I haven't read up on the rider and maybe I ought to, but if I am reading you right, their training consists of finding ways to get horses to work on in spite of being in pain. That's certainly what I see in the video of Chazot rearing, and I find it very uncomfortable to watch. If horses at the highest level are in pain, then shouldn't we stop riding them at the highest level, not train them that they work on because they can't escape it?

I'm just off now to check if they have a website, I don't do Facebook.

I think that when you understand that the horse was already rearing in his racing career with his jockeys and grooms, you will realise why he rears. Yes, it could be pain, but with Chazot it was more psychological. It was a bad habit and he was going to be put down. He was sent to JLC to see if he could do anything.

It is definitely not comfortable to watch... the horse is quite clearly demonstrating his displeasure for whatever reason - all of which was taken into account when JLC undertook the rehab. So, instead of putting him down, they realised his talent and decided to work through his many physical and mental issues.

If a horse is in pain due to muscular issues, the best thing to do is physiotherapy and build strength.

In kissing spine cases, the main cause is the lack of elastic strong muscle that lifts the ribcage and separates the spine due to poor development of muscle, lack of core strength, poor training as a young horse allowing excessive dipping (for the conformation of the horse, not every case is a swayback and not every swayback has kissing spines).... and so, despite the issue, building the essential core strength and muscle bulk is the only way to allow the spine to function properly again. Which is the rehab is so long, but possible and the horse is better muscled afterwards.

Chazot is not working at any level. He was retired but JLC thought the only way to stop him from being in pain is to build muscle... physiotherapy, in hand and ridden. He could not be ridden "normally" at first as you saw in the video but he had to be ridden at some point. It was a slow process. As is every rehab. One video does not prove that the horse is ridden daily, hourly etc in that manner.

My horse has SI issues... but MUST exercise. She MUST train and build those essential abdominal muscles before I can get back on. Soon, I will get back on and continue to work her properly to rebuild the essential muscles needed for riding... she was not blessed with a conformationally excellent back, but is far from being written off. We just have to recognise that certain conformations need certain types of exercise in order to carry a rider, without pain in the future.

p.s. I find it hard to follow his philosophy word for word but I understand where he is coming from and as someone who likes to ride classically rather than modern, it resonates with me.

 

[npage123]

For those who are interested, this article is available on his website (Scienceofmotion)

Stretching the Neck, Fairytale or Reality
“Men willingly believe what they wish.” (Gaius Julius Caesar)
Caesar’s thought applies to the lowering of the neck. The horse’s neck, stretching out to reach the bit, is a perception commonly associated with the lowering of the neck but the concept is in opposition of the muscular work actually achieved by the upper neck muscles when the neck is lowered. Creating a functional horse, athletically ready to perform, should definitively be the aim of all training techniques. However, appropriate body coordination does not result from metaphors that envision the stretching or telescopic action of the neck. These theories are fairytales. They mean well, in the sense that they wish to create a horse’s physique that functions effortlessly, but they are theorizing that the neck muscles work in a fashion that does not even come close to reality.

The wishing of good things for the horse is a great emotion but when the relationship with the horse is based on athletic performance a sound understanding of how the horse truly functions, and for this article specifically how muscles of the upper neck work, is a prerequisite. The main upper neck muscles are the splenius and semispinalis capitis. Both muscles are involved in the lifting of the neck and the resistance to its lowering. The head and neck weigh-in at approximately 10% of the horse’s body mass. This is a significant burden that is submitted to the attraction of gravity. Without the resistance of the upper neck muscles, the horse’s head would hang down only as far as the limit of compliance of the nuchal ligament. This is what happens when a horse is under sedation; when the upper neck muscles no longer resist the attraction of gravity the nuchal ligament takes over the support. At its maximum elastic compliance, the nuchal ligament keeps the horse head a few inches above the ground. This is why horses separate their front legs to graze; so they can reach the ground.
Looking at the muscles’ basic architecture, the lack of single contractile units spanning from origin to insertion contradicts the theory that an action exerted at one end of the muscles would be transmitted to the other end. This simplistic thinking often directs equestrian theories such as those that believe the lowering of the neck elongates the back muscles. Inside the muscle’s body, cells are producing forces that are transmitted to other cells via connective tissues and so on. Muscle cells can create simultaneous forces acting in different directions. Connective tissues are also arranged within the muscle, to permit simultaneous multiple tasks. “Connective tissue division can facilitate neuromuscular compartmentalization for differential function along a long muscle.” (1)

The morphology of the semispinalis capitis muscle implies different functions between its dorsal and ventral region. The muscle does have a strong central tendon within its body, which divides between the dorsal region situated above the tendon, and the ventral region situated below the tendon. This type of different architecture between the dorsal and ventral part of the same muscle is often seen when the function of the muscle cells is to enhance the tension of the central tendon. When the neck is lowered, the central tendon stretches and the muscle cells work to increase the central tendon’s elastic resistance. One needs to remember that the horse’s head weighs about 10% of the horse’s body mass. As the neck lowers, upper neck muscles, tendons and ligaments resist the burden of the head as it is pulled down by the attraction of gravity.

A very simple experiment can be made, which requires a large bucket full of water, a broom and two bungee cords. The weight of the water bucket illustrates the weight of the horse’s head. The handle of the broom represents the column of the cervical vertebrae. One bungee cord represents the upper neck muscles. The other bungee cord is used to attach the water bucket on the tip of the broom handle. You attach one end of the bungee cord on the tip of the broom handle and hold the other end in your right or left hand. The bungee cord illustrates the central tendon of the semispinalis capitis and your arm acts like the muscle’s cells and connective tissues of the semispinalis capitis muscle. You block the base of the broom with your foot and pull on the bungee cord to lift the upper end of the broom and the water bucket. Doing so, your arm is working as the horse’s upper neck splenius muscles work, as well as the dorsal element of the semispinalis capitis when they lift the horse’s neck. Then you lower the horse’s head, which in the experiment is the water bucket. According to the stretching theories, your arm should be stretching. Of course, it is not. You are pulling hard on the bungee cord otherwise the water bucket would crash onto the ground. So you are doing the work of the horse’s upper neck muscles. The lower you place the water bucket, the heavier is the pull on the central tendon, the bungee cord, and the stronger is the work of the muscle cells, which in the experiment are your arm’s muscles.

The thought that the horse’s neck telescopes out of the shoulders, stretches and reaches is wishful thinking to say the least. Even as a metaphor, the thought induces totally false ideas. The problem is that a horse does not perform as a fictitious model. Athletic achievements involve muscles, tendons, ligaments, fascia, central pattern generators, and nervous circuits. If the body coordination matches the rider’s fantasy but is unrelated to the horse’s physiology, the horse performs below his potential until lameness shortens his career. Lameness is not the only expression of physical pain, anticipation of a given movement or, more generally, anticipation of entering the show ring, worry, nervousness, gait abnormalities, frustration, anger, shutting off, and many other behaviors are expressions of pain.
The question might be; but why then does the horse lower the neck spontaneously after work? The response is simple. The horse eases the work of the upper neck muscles using the elastic resistance of the nuchal ligament. The nuchal ligament is inserted on the dorsal spines of the first through fourth thoracic vertebrae. At the other end, the funicular element of the nuchal ligament is attached on the skull. The nuchal ligament is not under tension when the neck is held in an alert position but does, in fact, come under tension when the horse lowers the neck. The nuchal ligament, which can be compared to a strong bungee cord, elongates assisting the upper neck muscles in their task of supporting the head and neck. The nuchal ligament replaces 55% or more of the work of the upper neck muscles at the walk. At the trot and canter, the assistance of the nuchal ligament replaces between 32 to 34% of the work of the upper neck muscles. As the horse lowers the neck, the tension of the nuchal ligament increases and the work of the upper neck muscles decreases. This is not stretching; this is simply easing the work of the upper neck muscles.

The thought that the lowering of the neck does increases the range of motion of the horse’s thoracolumbar spine is also inaccurate. Measurements have been made recording loss and gains in vertebral mobility when the neck is lowered. The experiment involved five specimens. All the five specimens gained vertebral mobility between T6 and T9 when the neck was lowered. T6 and T9 is the front part of the withers. Such gain of mobility is mainly due to the fact that the supraspinous ligament, which is the continuation over the tip of the dorsal spines of the nuchal ligament, is still somewhat elastic until T9. One of the five specimens lost mobility between T9 and T14 when the neck was lowered. The other four specimens did not gain vertebral mobility in the same area, associated with the lowering of the neck. Another specimen lost vertebral mobility between T14 and T18 when the neck was lowered. The other specimens did not gain mobility in this specific area when the neck was lowered. All the specimens lost vertebral mobility in the lumbar vertebrae. The five specimens gained mobility in the lumbosacral junction. This was explained in a previous publication and is the reason why uneducated observations lead to the belief that the lumbar vertebrae flex when the neck is lowered.
PART 2 CONTINUES

 

[npage123]

PART 2 CONTINUED (REFERS TO POST #14)

During the 19th century, the Prussian cavalry promoted total elevation of the horse’s neck. The thought behind the theory was about improving the horse’s balance. The experiment lasted several decades and was then abandoned completely. My guess is that injuries reached an epidemic level and even the greatest supporters had to reconsider. In contrast, Paul Plinzner, who was the Emperor’s riding master lowered and over-flexed his horses’ neck completely. This was the end of the 19th century. Since then, the horse’s poll has either been held at the highest point of the neck, or at lowest point of the neck. Whatever the fashion of the time was; going back and forth between both positions due to lack of proof of either being correct. Contemporary to Splinzner, François Baucher promoted the total elevation of the neck. Later Jacques Licart emphasized the extension of the neck. The French author had his mind set on stretching and referred to the lowering of the neck as an extension. In fact, technically, the lowering of the neck is a flexion. The total elevation of the neck is an extension. More recently, Harry Bolt warned against working the horse’s neck too deep, and so on. The common denominator behind these contradictory theories is that they are based on little science and very large imagination. The other similarity is that while they are promoting diametrically opposed approaches, both theories pretend to engage the horse’s back as well as the hind legs.
The truth is that the effects attributed to the lowering of the neck cannot be achieved by acting on the neck. Neck postures are convenient short cuts promising results that are in fact the outcome of precise coordination of the horse’s physique, starting with the decelerating and propulsive activity of the hind legs and continuing with the capacity of the back muscles to convert the thrust generated by the hind legs into horizontal forces, forward movement, and vertical forces, resisting attraction of gravity and therefore balance control. Proper vertebral column mechanism allows the forelegs to propel the horse’s body upward and forward. The horse is then placing and using the neck to further enhance balance control and quality and accuracy of the limbs kinematics. Pretending that such efficient coordination can result from the lowering of the neck is fiction. The problem is that fiction does not prepare efficiently the horse’s physique for the athletic demand of the performance.
Jean Luc Cornille

References:- (Morphology, Histochemistry, and Function of Epaxial Cervical Musculature in the Horse. K. S. Gellman, J. E. A. Bertram, and J. W. Hermanson, Journal of Morphology 251: 182-194, 2002)
000838429
Quote taken from www.scienceofmotion/stretching_the_neck.html

 

[npage123]

I've posted that above in the hope that anyone can shed some light on whether he said stretching the horse's head and neck post-exercise is not advisable?

 

[ycbm]

In kissing spine cases, the main cause is the lack of elastic strong muscle that lifts the ribcage and separates the spine due to poor development of muscle, lack of core strength, poor training as a young horse allowing excessive dipping (for the conformation of the horse, not every case is a swayback and not every swayback has kissing spines).... and so, despite the issue, building the essential core strength and muscle bulk is the only way to allow the spine to function properly again. Which is why the rehab is so long, but possible and the horse is better muscled afterwards.

That's pretty simplistic. There are horses with them at three years of age that refuse ever to be sat on. I'm sure the vets who are specialised in treating kissing spines wouldn't agree that the condition is as simple as you describe. And I don't believe that a video focusing on resolving the problems of one horse with only one clashing process, when most seem to have at least three and many five or six, is any kind of proof that all kissing spine can be resolved if only people knew how to train horses properly.

Regarding Chazot rearing since he was young, then I'd guess that he's been in pain since he was young. I'd want to have seen head to toe x rays and scans and a stomach scope before you could convince me that that stiff, short striding horse with the flicking ears and stressed face was not in significant pain being made worse by being ridden, which then caused him to rear. Of course the video might explain what checks had been done, but from what I've seen I'm not interested in paying fifty dollars to see it.

 

[ycbm]

I've posted that above in the hope that anyone can shed some light on whether he said stretching the horse's head and neck post-exercise is not advisable?

He says that on five horses he tested, it has no loosening effect on the back vertebrae, but it does have an effect in loosening the end of the back/sacroiliac region. He doesn't make any comment, as far as I can see, about whether that is advisable or not.

The problem I have with the article is that it takes no account of riding by feel. Surely a good trainer can feel whether a horse is relaxed or not? I'm no expert, and I can.

Secondly, it's all very well for him to quibble at people referring to stretching the neck as physically impossible, but the fact is that in free walk on a long rein, the horse's nose is, or should be, way out in front of where it is in medium walk, and it seems perfectly reasonable to me to describe that as stretching out.

Bamboozling people with science so they can't understand him, and things like that really put me of wanting to know any more about him.

 

[tallyho!]

That's pretty simplistic. There are horses with them at three years of age that refuse ever to be sat on. I'm sure the vets who are specialised in treating kissing spines wouldn't agree that the condition is as simple as you describe. And I don't believe that a video focusing on resolving the problems of one horse with only one clashing process, when most seem to have at least three and many five or six, is any kind of proof that all kissing spine can be resolved if only people knew how to train horses properly.

Regarding Chazot rearing since he was young, then I'd guess that he's been in pain since he was young. I'd want to have seen head to toe x rays and scans and a stomach scope before you could convince me that that stiff, short striding horse with the flicking ears and stressed face was not in significant pain being made worse by being ridden, which then caused him to rear. Of course the video might explain what checks had been done, but from what I've seen I'm not interested in paying fifty dollars to see it.

You're right it's not as simple and in fact only one cause which vets treat and mostly successfully if the rehab is followed. What I stated was one of the more simplistic views vets have on what the causes are. I have over simplified it as I don't have the inclination to write reams on it. Correct training CAN and DOES fix and eliminate the problem for MANY horses.

http://www.cottsequine.co.uk/equine...eries/standing-kissing-spines-operation.shtml

How young do you think he was when he started rearing? Where did you get that? He was rearing when he was racing. Due to bad treatment. Have you bothered to look at any of the other youtube videos of him actually being rehabbed? When he was "better"?

 

[ycbm]

Have you bothered to look at any of the other youtube videos of him actually being rehabbed? When he was "better"?

No. I can beat and starve a horse into making it load into a lorry, but the fact that I can show you video of the horse leading really well later does not make how the end result was achieved acceptable. In the rearing video, the horse looks to me and other posters to be in serious pain. I add-on not interested in watching any more of his training.

 

[ycbm]

You're right it's not as simple and in fact only one cause which vets treat and mostly successfully if the rehab is followed. What I stated was one of the more simplistic views vets have on what the causes are. I have over simplified it as I don't have the inclination to write reams on it. Correct training CAN and DOES fix and eliminate the problem for MANY horses.

http://www.cottsequine.co.uk/equine...eries/standing-kissing-spines-operation.shtml

How young d

Quite. As Cotts, who pioneered the ligament snip operation point out, there is nothing special in what Cornill does in rehabbing kissing spines through training, other people also do it all the time.

 

[npage123]

Thank you for posting your opinions and explanations.

I think I'll just continue my leisurely walks on my semi-retired boy, on as long a rein as he aksks for. There's nothing he likes more than being on sniff along the ground, having a free rein to the buckle, munching on a bit of herbs, shrubs and foliage and occasionally a deep drink and splash/play in the woodland puddles, so I'll do more of that.

 

[tallyho!]

No. I can beat and starve a horse into making it load into a lorry, but the fact that I can show you video of the horse leading really well later does not make how the end result was achieved acceptable. In the rearing video, the horse looks to me and other posters to be in serious pain. I add-on not interested in watching any more of his training.

The horse WAS in pain mentally and physically. That was the point of working him in hand and ridden at various points during his rehabilitation. It's rehabilitation.

Which is why there was no point in bringing it up on Michen's thread. There was no relevance as you can't prove Miche's horse was the same. Chazot was under vets care along the way.

By the way his "methods" is just classical training. Loads of people train like that. There's nothing special about it apart from the whole biomechanics aspect that he is so interested in and no-one actually philosophises about it to the extent that he does! I for one cannot quite grasp all his science speak, but I can understand from a physiological perspective. I can remember feeling the same way about it when I first saw it. You're not the only one who dismisses JLC without understanding. Many of his peers criticise him.

 

[tallyho!]

Quite. As Cotts, who pioneered the ligament snip operation point out, there is nothing special in what Cornill does in rehabbing kissing spines through training, other people also do it all the time.

Exactly. So what?

 

[ycbm]

The horse WAS in pain mentally and physically. That was the point of working him in hand and ridden at various points during his rehabilitation. It's rehabilitation.

Which is why there was no point in bringing it up on Michen's thread. There was no relevance as you can't prove Miche's horse was the same. Chazot was under vets care along the way.

By the way his "methods" is just classical training. Loads of people train like that. There's nothing special about it apart from the whole biomechanics aspect that he is so interested in and no-one actually philosophises about it to the extent that he does! I for one cannot quite grasp all his science speak, but I can understand from a physiological perspective. I can remember feeling the same way about it when I first saw it. You're not the only one who dismisses JLC without understanding. Many of his peers criticise him.

Please do not write as if I brought this up on Michens thread and made comparisons with Michens horse. I didn't.

 

[ester]

As someone used to reading sciencey stuff I don't like his style of writing and am not entirely convinced about his self-styling as the 'science of motion'. Anyone who considers a sample size of 5 shows anything is well, pretty unscientific. He also seems to completely miss the point that horses spend most of their time grazing, so having the nuchal ligament at it's extreme of tension is it's 'normal'.

 

[Barnacle]

I haven't read this entire thread and I've not looked into this man in great detail (watched that one video and some other clips of him riding the same horse when it was rearing in slow motion). From the quote off this guy's website on the first page, I get the implication that this guy "researches" movement (also from the fact he's called this "science of motion" though, nothing else quoted suggests to me there's an iota of science involved)... So, since I'm being lazy, does this guy actually do any research/have peer-reviewed papers out? Or are we talking pretend-science gibberish?

 

[Goldenstar]

Anybody can call anything science it does not mean it's science .

 

[npage123]

On his website there are plenty of short extracts avail on his articles/books/dvd's, which definitely includes some science, but bear in mind it's not the full versions of his is studies

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/biomechanics_of_lameness.html

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/equine_back_research.html

http://www.scienceofmotion.com/sacroiliac_strain.html

 

[Goldenstar]

Horses graze , having their heads down is completely natural to them.