Join-up? Pros, Cons, Opinions?

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QueenDee_

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I was just wondering what the pros and cons are on Monty Roberts' 'Join-up'. I have been interested in the idea for a while now, after reading Monty's book 'The man who listens to horses' (If you haven't read it, I strongly reccomend you do, it is a really enjoyable and interesting book) and watching Martin Clunes' Horsepower.

Also I don't have a round pen, so do you think it would be possible to make one with electric fence posts or jumps? I don't have a small field or an arena either, and I don't feel up to chasing my horse around our fields, I dont think my legs would last!

So I was just wondering what your opinions are, have any of you done it? If so, did it work etc, or any tips :D

Thanks! :D
 
Yeah a few times. I've failed to find any major use from it though, to be honest.

Boredom curer however though!

Still rather spend the time riding, giving it a workout lunging or just grooming really tbh :)
 
Depends on the size of your horse-without a high fence they are very liable to jump out and do themselves injury..
 
I too am quite intrigued to try it, so can offer little advice there having never done it.
But I can vouch for round pen made from electric fence posts - just strung some narrowish sailing ropes between them in two rows instead of the electric tape stuff - works fine!
 
Done it with every horse I have owned apart from the current one as just plain forgot. Think its great as it usually start the relationship off with the horse well, it is the first thing I do with my new horse (usually) and will do a few days of ground work/ playing before I get on them to let them settle into their new place and get to know me. (expects bashing to commence imminently), why I have not done it with Jim I don't know, will play with him tomorrow.
 
I think it looks like a good reinforcer of your leadership role, but I can't help thinking that with your average horse it does little more than some good solid ground work would do for you.
 
littlemac-all very well until horse attempts to jump/run through pen-and catches itself and causes nasty injury
 
LittleMac said:
I too am quite intrigued to try it, so can offer little advice there having never done it.
But I can vouch for round pen made from electric fence posts - just strung some narrowish sailing ropes between them in two rows instead of the electric tape stuff - works fine!
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Depends...my horse doesn't respect it at all, she didn't injure herself that time but wouldn't risk attempting to chase her round a round pen made of electric tape/rope. It causes horrid injuries if they get caught, and breaks posts at best which is a pain!

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I would be careful if u decide to do it without knowing exactly what you're doing, u need to be sure your horse is suitable for it and be sure u know how to read the signs from the horse and know how your body language should be etc. And I def wouldn't do it without a pen, too many things can go wrong
 
true - with such a chilled out horse using it (and also for parelli, not join-up, so much more subdued) i hadn't thought of this - eek.
and yes, this parelli malarky was a few years ago, before everyone recoils in horror!
 
i watched my friend have a go, and unforunatly didnt work, followed out all the correct steps- but in a paddock the horse was much more interested in being allowed to graze again- not being allowed in the person's company again ;p
 
I've always found that if you find a horses favourite itchy spot and give it a good hard lip curling scratch, they generally find that quite friendly and follow you ( join up) to get another one.....and you don't need to scare the c**p out of it chasing it off in order to get a result :)
 
guesstimation said:
I would be careful if u decide to do it without knowing exactly what you're doing, u need to be sure your horse is suitable for it and be sure u know how to read the signs from the horse and know how your body language should be etc. And I def wouldn't do it without a pen, too many things can go wrong
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I TOTALLY agree with this... many many years ago (in a galaxy far, far blah blah) when my lad was a youngster, due to his history even at his age, I decided I needed to do something different; my lovely parents treated me to a week course with a MR trainer, which truly was a fantastic experience. I came back totally buzzing, and proceeded to nearly get killed. Why? I went in 'knowing' it all, doing EVERYTHING I had learned all in one go, and he exploded. I went back in very humbled, and we now have the best relationship, and it really did start off with me learnin g to work out what he was saying. So yes, it is an incredibly powerful tool, but remember one thing. You may learn to 'talk horse' and communicate, but your horse is fluent. 'Read rather than dictate - he knows what he's doing ;-)
 
here's an extract from Cavallo magazine on join-up which some people might like to read and consider:


((Introduction)) When a horse in a round pen is chewing and licking its lips American trainer Monty Roberts rates this as proof of the success of his work, that will gain him the respect and the trust of the horse. Robert's interpretation: The chewing and the licking is a sign of respect and relaxation of the herbivore horse. This theory is one of pillars of Roberts' allegedly non-violent Join-up method. How do equine ethologists and behavioural scientists interpret the chewing and licking? Does it always signal relaxation? How gentle is Join up really? CAVALLO asked leading experts from all over the world. Here are some excerpts of their answers:






Dr. Francis Burton, Brain Researcher and Behaviourist at the Institute of Biomedical & Life Sciences of the Scottish University of Glasgow. I think the horse is already stressed by the time he is "licking and chewing". This action is caused by a previous adrenaline release. The simple physiological explanation goes: being made to flee - increase in circulating adrenaline - dry mouth - licking. This means a horse may lick and chew following a fright, in which situation it surely cannot mean "I'm a herbivore, and if I'm eating I can't be afraid of you" the interpretation given by Monty Roberts in join up. I've tried "join up" with three horses with whom I already had a trusting relationship. One joined up "classically" and followed me around meekly. The other two displayed signs of being irritated by the procedure, one showed increased aggressiveness towards me. I was left wondering frankly what the point of the exercise was and realized that the driving away had a detrimental effect on the trust that I already had built up. > It is not a technique that I would consider using myself, or recommending to other people.



Lesley Skipper, Equestrian author from the USA. Author of the book "Inside your horse's mind - A Study of Equine Intelligence and Human Prejudice". She owns eight Arabs, Hanoverian and Draught horses. I have often observed chewing and licking in horses who are anxious about something as evinced by their body language. In some cases it may simply indicate that they are thirsty. This illustrates the need for caution when attributing specific meanings to particular gestures or facial expressions as these can vary according to context. To be fair, Monty Robert's pupil Kelly Marks does inform people that licking and chewing can signify anxiety, and she also warns that join up is not suitable for every horse. The problem I have with many so-called natural horsemanship methods is that it seems to be based on some very limited observations of free-ranging horses and much of it pertains to stallions rather than mares. The result is that the training methods adopted are based on very simplistic assumptions, which are not necessarily correct.



Mary Ann Simonds, Wildlife and Range Ecologist, Equine Behaviourist and Therapist. In 1987 she wrote the Guidelines for Managing Wild Horse Stress for the American Bureau of Land Management (BML) and she is the founder of the Whole Horse Institute in Vancouver/Washington. In working with many wild horses, I have observed that at first their lips are tight and they are fearful. As they start to let go off their stress, they often will lick and chew - this is however more a sign of relief than of relaxation. But horses will lick and chew, too, when they are in a high state of stress with eyes rolling back, sweating, pawing. But in this situation it demonstrates, I believe, just a way for the horse to release some of the built up stress. I have known Monty Roberts for almost 30 years. Many of the "join up" techniques are not natural to a horse and in fact cause trauma. The video made by Monty Roberts with a wild horse given to him by the BLM was one of the most stressed encounters I have seen. The wild horse demonstrated every level of "high stress indicator". Good horse ethologists or trainers take into account the horse's temperament and level of stress and then design the most appropriate method to help the horse learn with the least amount of stress and fear. Patience, kindness and being able to think like a horse, are the best traits a human educator can have to educate a horse. Join up once started out as a better way to "break" horses, and has just turned into just another way to control horses using techniques they do not all understand.



Dr. Dirk Lebelt, Specialist for Animal Behaviour at the Horse Clinic Havelland in Brielow/Brandenburg, Germany I have some doubts regards the claimed naturalness of round pen training. Even though the control of the movement of a lower status horse by a high status horse is a characteristic of specific equine behaviour. But while under natural conditions the lower status horse is able to evade the aggressions of the higher status animal and may signal its submissiveness, an evasion is impossible within the round pen. In my opinion this explains partly the quick success that often can be observed during round pen training. The horse feels it is at the mercy of the trainer, which is also called "learned helplessness". This leads to quick submission. How far such a procedure, which surely doesn't correspond with the specific equine behavioural repertoire, is non-violent or not, depends definitely on the empathy and the experience of the trainer.



Andy Beck from the "White Horse Farm Equine Ethology Project" in Northland/New Zealand studies equine behaviour and training methods on Thoroughbreds and Arabs. The drive away in which the horse is put into 'flight' is potentially very frightening. The use of a mask increases the element of panic and the potential for "learned helplessness". While this may create an appearance of "control" it has also been shown to impede future learning. There is also the risk of producing abreaction in response to repressed emotion (fear, isolation). Horses that have already been well socialised to people become extremely confused by being driven away. The horse has no idea why it is harried and is most likely to experience the method as unpredictable aggression - the last thing a good trainer wants a horse to experience. One of the most basic tenets of good horse management is that the handler is able to control their behaviour so that they do not trigger the response of blind flight as a predator would do.



Professor Katherine Houpt, Behavioural Psychologist and Physiologist at the College of Veterinary Behaviourists, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA I have seen Roberts use the Dually as punishment - jerking on the nose rope and forcing the horse to back up. He doesn't call it punishment, but it is. His method is not suitable for every horse. Very aggressive horses will charge. And it is not suitable for every horse owner, as some simply exhaust the horse. To drive the horse away is just a form of negative reinforcement - doing something unpleasant until the horse does what you want. That is not too different from kicking the horse until he trots. I don't think this method has anything to do with herd behaviour and I don't know how often horses are permanently cured of their problem if Roberts isn't there. Round Pen training is not miraculous.



Dr. Natalie Waran, Expert for Equine Behaviour at the Royal School of Veterinary Sciences of the Scottish University of Edinburgh In the UK we are rather getting tired of the join up method especially as this method is not new at all, but the Gyro (a round pen) was used for training horses in Roman times. If the horse is placed in isolation and in an unfamiliar environment and powerful psychological techniques such as those in the join up system are applied, you have to question the effect that has on the animal: The handler becomes an unpredictable dictator and the horse learns to become helpless, activity is reduced and the horse shows licking and chewing - all signs of stress.





Dr. Evelyn Hanggi, Equine Behaviourist and President of the Equine Research Foundation in Aptos, California. Round pen training and Monty Roberts are not one and the same. Proper use of a round pen by a good trainer is not nearly as stressful as what you see with Roberts. He uses halters that create pain. He uses a buckstopper and right there he loses any credibility of non- violence. Horses do not learn well when they are fearful or in pain.




Andrew McLean, founder of the biggest Centre for Equine Behaviour in Australia, and member of the International Society of Applied Ethology. He trains problem horses, rides Dressage and Military and is completing a PhD thesis on the mental processes of the horse and its consequences for training. It has been clearly demonstrated by researchers that unlike other behaviours, fear responses are not subject to extinction. Any fear responses that are provoked by humans (like e.g. chasing it around a round pen, the editor) will indelibly etch on the horse's memory - the horse associates fear responses with the perception of humans. The trouble is, these associations are not always evident immediately, they come back to "haunt" the relationship at a later point when stress levels are raised. All sorts of chasing horses should therefore be questioned. In our early training and in the rehab of horses at our centre, we avoid all forms of chasing such as driving or lunging especially when the horse is fearful.
 
Yeah i would be carefull when i got my rescue horse jack we did lots of ground work because of his reaction to us and we built a round pen and i took him in sent him on was going well for 4/5 mins then he turned in went right for me... spent 2nights in hospital with bruised ribs a nice cut on my head and vairouse bumps bruises and cuts .... we stuck to what i know and brushed him and loved him and all that
and then tried it with math and he jumped out.
however you do have to keep in mind i own two freaks who arnt normal horses. ahaaa
a few on my yard have done it and said it helps with there relationship :)
i guess try all you can.
also im sure you can buy mobile round pens
would have a look around =] xxx
 
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