Join Up - with a remote controlled car

[tess1]

Scientists have questioned the "humane" claims made by Monty Roberts and his followers with regards to join up. Apparently they observed behaviours similar to those seen in join up by using a remote controlled car to move the horses around the pen. The study will be presented at ISES (International Symposium of Equitation Science) later in the year.

From the article link:

"Our results indicate that because these methods rely on fear and safety, the horse is forced to choose between being repeatedly frightened or remaining with the trainer. We question whether it is humane to rely on fear and its termination to train horses," said Henshall.

"Although it is appealing to think that horses in the round pen choose to follow their trainers because they are responding to us as though we are a horse, we believe that the use of fear has no place in genuinely humane and ethical horse training."

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-urge-rethink-monty-roberts-horse.html

 

[HaffiesRock]

Interesting...

 

[Ladyinred]

This has proved to be not very popular in certain quarters!!

Personally I think it bears out much that we have all known for a long time, ie join up is all smoke and mirrors and very little to do with the 'language of equus'

 

[leogeorge]

Well That's weird!! There's me thinking Join up was all about body language and "speaking the language of Equus", and then along comes a remote control car that can achieve the same thing!! How can that be???

 

[Queenbee]

Well That's weird!! There's me thinking Join up was all about body language and "speaking the language of Equus", and then along comes a remote control car that can achieve the same thing!! How can that be???

very interesting article, there are 2 facts though, horses are flight animals though and so to play to this and their natural responses and thought process, whether using a RC car or a human, does not necessarily mean it is wrong. Creating a situation where the horse quickly works out that there is a 'safe zone' around the person/car in the pen is I would suppose the ultimate aim of the process. There was also research conducted into the differences between MR practices and traditional methods using the heart rate of the horse throughout the breaking in process as a comparison. the MR horses showed a significantly lower heart rate than traditionally broken horses, not a huge difference but significant all the same. I do not dispute the findings of the study and I find them very interesting and their implications but it doesn't mean that the entire process is wrong. MR no doubt truly believed that body language was an important factor, I doubt he ever tried this process with a car and therefore he wouldn't know that body language was not a deciding factor. Body language may well be an amplifier for the message the horse recieves.

 

[tallyho!]

Sorry to say this but... so what??

Join up is better than beating an animal into submission... the "humane" thing to do would be to leave them in the shrinking wilderness to fend for themselves.

These are domestic animals and join-up is a pretty good way of making things work between human and horse in as nice a way as possible for the masses. What would they suggest be the appropriate alternative?

There is too much money being spent on practically useless stuff like this but I guess the devil makes work for idle hands...

 

[photo_jo]

I know someone in NZ who in a fit of pique chased her uncatchable horse round field with a motorbike. After five minutes it was following her. She said that if she was in a hurry she only had to start the bike and the horse was waiting at the gate!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

There was also research conducted into the differences between MR practices and traditional methods using the heart rate of the horse throughout the breaking in process as a comparison. the MR horses showed a significantly lower heart rate than traditionally broken horses, not a huge difference but significant all the same.

It depends what you consider to be 'traditional methods'.
Traditional British methods and traditional American methods are very different. I know plenty of British breeders who handle their foals from day 1, so there is no trauma whatsoever involved in the 'breaking' process. The foal's dam trusts the handler, so the foal does too.
We don't have so many 'wild' horses as there are in the USA, so there is nowhere near as much opportunity for 'breaking' completely unhandled youngsters.
The only horse I've ever had which did not follow me (and sister) upon request was the first horse sis and I had. He was our only gelding and obviously we did not know as much as we did with subsequent horses. Which of these facts is the most relevant, I don't know.
I do wish people would think about what their horses need and their likely responses to different situations, instead of jumping on the fashionable bandwagons which IMO are merely designed to make their instigators a fortune. 'Smoke and mirrors' doesn't even begin to describe some of the abominable practices which these charlatans recommend.

 

[Tickles]

Hmmm... I didn't know how many people thought it was anything /other/ then fear-safety.

But having said that

1) Why shouldn't a remote control car be able to mimic horse 'language' close to how well humans do it? (Neither us not it looks like a horse and by 'chasing' the car *did* have body language... it said "I'm coming to get you!")

2) Horses train youngsters with fear-inducing body language... getting chased means being away from the herd and vulnerable to predictors. So, horses, and MR types are threatening horses with being eaten to get them to display desired behaviour.

3) That doesn't mean MR is worse than some of the practices he grew up with (he is a lot better IMO)

4) But no, I personally, wouldn't do the chasing repeatedly and have had horses 'join up' (follow around as if lead whilst free) after softly-softly' bonding too.

 

[Queenbee]

I believe the research was on what we Brits would consider traditional. There was however no difference in heart rate a couple of weeks post backing and riding on, the conclusion was that his method was perhaps slightly less stressful but once the horses were backed and riding on neither method was better than the other although I don't suppose this looked at how the different methods affected heart rate in stressful situations under saddle... Eg teaching a horse to relax around traffic. I believe it was a very general look at the differences in the backing processes

 

[Pearlsasinger]

But if the methods I consider traditional i.e. the foal being handled daily from birth, were used there would be no need for a raised heart-rate when it came to the backing process, aged 3 or 4, as the foal would be used to having someone lying across it etc. And there would certainly be no need for the chasing the horse away that is 'join-up', as the foal would already be used to following the handler.
I can see a certain value in MR's methods with a previously unhandled youngster, although I would not use these myself but there are relatively few unhandled youngsters in Britain.

 

[Littlelegs]

There possibly is a difference in heart rate, but only if join up hasn't been done prior to backing. But the monty Roberts join up isn't the only way of joining up. As pearlsasinger says, it can be achieved by daily handling.
I think the problem is with join up in a short time in a round pen is that it doesn't work when flight turns to fight. Which is exactly what a horse will do when its cornered by a predator & it is scared. So the fact only a small % of horses fight, & fail to join up in a round pen makes me doubt the fear is actually that real.
I don't think it makes a huge deal of difference if its a car or a human doing the join up. Neither look like horses. But really its not the best use of resources for research to help the equine world.

 

[Mike007]

Sounds like rubbish to me. A horse is essentialy "pre programmed" to react in certain ways within the herd structure. Faced with somthing completely alien like a model car the horse will be afraid and looking for somthing it can understand. Once the car starts behaving in a manner that fits the horses pre programmed responses, the horse will react with it . Rather than disprove or devalue joining up, this clearly proves that this in built horse language does exist. The fact that the horse is reccognising certain ellements of its body language in the model and tries to communicate back does not disprove anything. As an aside .I have found that after a good schooling sesion with my horse, once I get off he and I are joined up too.

 

[Queenbee]

Littlelegs I agree... Waste of money. I personally really like MR and admire his work, what he has done for horses, how he has opened people's eyes to other methodologies and different ways to view and understand the horse. I believe that not only has he shown another, some would argue sympathetic approach, he has moreover opened peoples eyes and brains to the fact that there are a number of ways of doing things, in whichever way you look at thinks he provoked a change in perspective which I believe was ultimately for the good of the horse. That being said, no matter how much I admire his methods and believe they work, I don't dislike our traditional methods... Ben is currently off at a traditional bootcamp. I think one thing people forget when they slag off join up though is what it was meant to replace. As another poster said, traditional in America means a whole different thing, and horses are dragged in untouched and backed in large numbers, quickly and with great stress to them, mr was trying to show a far more sympathetic alternative that could be used, that was as effective and fast, but kinder. I personally do not think that anyone could argue that join up is anywhere near as stressful for a horse as some of the traditional ranch methods.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

........ traditional in America means a whole different thing, and horses are dragged in untouched and backed in large numbers, quickly and with great stress to them, mr was trying to show a far more sympathetic alternative that could be used, that was as effective and fast, but kinder. I personally do not think that anyone could argue that join up is anywhere near as stressful for a horse as some of the traditional ranch methods.

I agree, QB, that MR's methods are far less stressful than traditional American Ranch methods. What I object to is being told that MR's methods (and those of other Americans who shall remain nameless) are less stressful/kinder/better than traditional British methods, when this is patently NOT the case. The vast majority of British breeders handle their young-stock prior to weaning and have done for centuries.
I cannot understand why these 'smoke and mirror merchants' have been hailed as enlightened by people in Britain. I can only conclude that their marketing is marvellous.
Incidentally, I do not consider BHS as traditional, as I know that some younger HHO posters do.

 

[Queenbee]

Ps, completely get what you are saying and there is no replacement for common sense I think over here on the whole we have worked with our youngsters quite well and respectfully. I do not think with mr it's all smoke and mirrors. I remember watching a documentary where he was describing how he worked with a racehorse that was frightened of the starting gates, this horse was such a mess with no prospects, facing the bullet, covered in scars... He said it was his most difficult challenge, he took months on this horse and turned him around, mr for all that I don't use his prescribed methods, has my complete respect and I truly believe that his no 1 priority is the horse, certain other nameless Americans who refuse to recognise the horse in the interest of money and self glorification, and who use gum lines and call themselves humane, have strayed a long way off the path they originally trod IMO.

 

[Queenbee]

Mike ... I found exactly the same with my horse

 

[fburton]

Scientists have questioned the "humane" claims made by Monty Roberts and his followers with regards to join up. Apparently they observed behaviours similar to those seen in join up by using a remote controlled car to move the horses around the pen. The study will be presented at ISES (International Symposium of Equitation Science) later in the year.

Next week, in fact!

 

[TrasaM]

What a waste of time and money. I know that once someone comes up with an alternative theory that they will be doubted and tested. Caesar Milan for eg.criticised for being cruel to dogs. I think that there was an experiment done last year where a number of horses were trained using MR methods and the same number trained by traditional English methods. I've not seen it televised yet but from what I read the worst performing MR horse was better than the best using our traditional method.

 

[Caol Ila]

This is not the first discussion on this board to construct a dichotomy between "natural horsemanship" type methods and "traditional British" methods. I really want to know what traditional British methods are. I'm not from here; I'm from Colorado where in the early to mid 2000s, when I was learning how to start horses, the NH methods had become more or less the dominant paradigm for working with youngsters, so that's what I was taught. It's worked well for me. But if someone told me to start a horse using "traditional British" methods, I would say that I haven't got a clue.

 

[alsiola]

Caesar Milan for eg.criticised for being cruel to dogs.

He is more criticised for promoting training methods that can be dangerous to the trainer if they aren't very skilled and experienced. He may have the skill to do it safely, but many of the people who try his methods after watching his show do not, and will get hurt as a result.

 

[Oberon]

I tried Join Up with the Arab once.

I penned of half the school and chased him round making claw hands and "booga booga" noises.

After a while it became apparent that I had joined up with him .

 

[Queenbee]

I tried Join Up with the Arab once.

I penned of half the school and chased him round making claw hands and "booga booga" noises.

After a while it became apparent that I had joined up with him .

 

[tess1]

Ps, completely get what you are saying and there is no replacement for common sense I think over here on the whole we have worked with our youngsters quite well and respectfully. I do not think with mr it's all smoke and mirrors. I remember watching a documentary where he was describing how he worked with a racehorse that was frightened of the starting gates, this horse was such a mess with no prospects, facing the bullet, covered in scars... He said it was his most difficult challenge, he took months on this horse and turned him around, mr for all that I don't use his prescribed methods, has my complete respect and I truly believe that his no 1 priority is the horse, certain other nameless Americans who refuse to recognise the horse in the interest of money and self glorification, and who use gum lines and call themselves humane, have strayed a long way off the path they originally trod IMO.

Monty does use gumlines/buckstoppers. He even had access to one during the study that was supposedly showing how kind and humane his methods were. These were young horses at the start of their ridden career, with less than ten hours of training under their belts. A link was put up to a write up of the study recently on here, and the buckstopper was included in his equipment list, along with a dummy rider and pacifiers (blinkers).


With regard to the racehorse that Monty worked with (Blushing ET), it is generally accepted by many that he flooded the horse and put him into a state of learned helplessness, resulting in the horse collapsing in the starting stalls. There were some posts on here about it recently.

With reference to the heart rates that were taken in the study, and have been widely relied upon to illustrate "lack of stress", I recently read some very interesting comments from someone who works in cardiology who was questioning the findings. I have her permission to refer to them here:

There are big problems in using heart rates for assessment of stress especially as they used the equivalent of a Polar heart rate monitor costing less than £400. It can be bad enough getting correct heart rates on humans during exercise using equipment costing thousands of pounds! From what I have read and been told there wasn't an ECG recording made so absolutely no way to verify the heart rates given by the monitor. A couple of points. 1) The base heart rate was double a normal resting heart rate. 2) The heart rate spiked on the first use of a Dually to levels which would only have been achieved with extreme exercise. 3) The heart rate can fall as well as rise during episodes of extreme stress. Even if the heart rate increases it will not be sustained at a high peak rate due to stress, it will always drop again as the initial 'adrenaline rush' subsides.


Personally I feel that the findings from the Monty study have been presented in an extremely simplistic way, designed to show Monty in the best light. It seems to be much more a marketing/pr exercise than a serious attempt at researching and understanding join up. "Findings to be taken with a large pinch of salt" as one of my lecturers would have put it (many years ago )

Francis Burton - I didn't realise ISES was so soon, would love to have gone this year, but not to be. Although I should perhaps warn you not to get too excited if you are going; according to Kelly Marks the studies presented usually aren't very good, in fact her own psychology students do much better ones.

 

[Pale Rider]

A little more research telling us nothing we didn't know already.

I have to say that I've never been a fan of MR nor his Intelligent Horsemanship. He is a horse trainer and more often than not gets a horse to do what he wants.
He is not what I understand to be a Natural Horsemanship trainer in the line of Dorrance or Hunt.
He certainly could not be called a pain free trainer.

 

[leogeorge]

Well, I'm amazed to hear that Kellys psychology students are producing better studies than those presented at ISES, especially when you consider some of what she is teaching them.

To quote Kelly from her FB page (now deleted since her ignorance has been pointed out)

"OFF TO HORSE PSYCHOLOGY COURSE NOW! Start with the Learning Theory i.e. Classical Conditioning the subject learns that one events follows another i.e. horse bucks = rider does unofficial dismount = horse gets to eat grass - ooops!"

Surely to God, if you are going to teach learning theory, you should actually know it yourself!!

She also states that Duallys "will not harm or DESENSITISE the horses mouth"

Huh??!!!

 

[Dry Rot]

I don't understand the problem (?) with join up. All these fancy words. Join up? Call it what you will, it works. And Mr P's "carrot stick". It's a goddam stick, isn't it? There's not much new in training, just a lot of clever business people using fancy words and putting things in a more palatable form for the masses.

It seems to me that horses are programmed to deal with fear. I understand that they are unique in having a heart rate that can increase and decrease faster, and with a greater range, than other quadrupeds. After fear, there is relief. Kids love to be scared by horror films and tales of witches and hobgoblins (non-PC I gather today!). So should animals be different? So long as they can cope with the "fear" and it is not terror -- and I don't think a human flapping his arms about, or a model car, is going to be particularly terrorising even to a horse. Just something to be avoided as it's an unknown.

Training is mostly about comfort and discomfort and showing the animal that it has the power to make that choice. And before I'm leapt on for being cruel, I haven't heard of many horses breaking into the tack room to voluntarily put a bit into their mouths! They respond to the bit and other aids because they have been taught that it is more comfortable to respond the way they've been trained to.

I went to see a seven month old foal the other day. The owner was talking about "getting someone in" to show her how to teach it to lead. It had a leather head collar on and had been well handled. About five minutes of pressure and release with a finger through the collar and it knew all about handling the mild discomfort of a tug and how to relieve that pressure by moving in the desired direction. If only the owner had half that intelligence!

Sorry for the rant, the hay was almost fit to bale last night. Now it's rained -- again -- so I'm feeling a bit frustrated!

 

[tallyho!]

I honestly think papafrita's methods are the best around. I paid a bargain for her VD's, pdfs and branded equipment (hand made so still waiting for delivery after 8months) at $4009.99.

I prefer using two makeshift banasticks at the same time and blowing the horses in the direction I want them to go in.

I also did an equine NLP course and can now make the horses come in from the field by just imagining water falling from one bucket to another.

 

[tess1]

To quote Kelly from her FB page (now deleted since her ignorance has been pointed out)

"OFF TO HORSE PSYCHOLOGY COURSE NOW! Start with the Learning Theory i.e. Classical Conditioning the subject learns that one events follows another i.e. horse bucks = rider does unofficial dismount = horse gets to eat grass - ooops!"

Now, I know not everyone is a learning theory geek (and I am ) but that really is a shocking blooper from someone taking considerable sums of money off people to teach them "horse psychology". The difference between classical and operant conditioning is really very, very basic stuff. Even over-looking the hopelessly incorrect definition, the whole example is very bad as it gives people the impression that a horse will buck a rider off in order to eat grass - a much better example would have considered the association of pain with riding as a result of some sort of problem or unsoundness with horse/tack etc.

 

[Pale Rider]

In the horse world people are duped from the moment they decide to get involved.
Whether they are selling you the especially baled for horses hay, to the full box set of DVD's.
An equine water proof coat, for you or your horse.
The I haven't got a clue, but shoes if barefoot, barefoot if shod, are you insured by the way? Equine vet.
They are all at it.
I'll turn your horse out for a fiver, with a rug, a tenner.
Full set of shoes, eighty quid, for that horse, set of gates while I'm here?