Joint supplements don't work

[Wagtail]

After taking glucosamine myself for many months and finding absolutely no difference whatsoever, I decided to look into whether these supplements actually DO work. Asking around, it seems my experience and disappointment at the supplements is all too common. A quick google shows that recent research on humans shows that glucosamine and chondroitin do not work http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11330747 and that is only one of many links indicating just that.

So, are we wasting our money feeding them to our horses? I personally have never seen a difference and so don't bother, but with the price of some supplements (just because they are intended for the horse market) being very high, are we not being robbed blind?

 

[rubysmum]

have to say completely agree with you - the big mare was on all sorts of joints supplements for years - spent lots & lots of money - became poor - she stopped getting them - & i saw NO difference at all - she now has a scooop of tumeric in her feed on the basis if it doesnt work it also doesnt bankrupt me

 

[Roody2]

Yes we are being robbed blind. Don't take them yourself and don't feed them to your horses! You may as well stand over the toilet and drop your pound coins in!!

 

[sula]

I would have agreed too but a friend who is some big bod research fellow and professor at a very good, old university reviewed the evidence and concluded that whilst supplements such as those mentioned had no effect on existing damage and disease, they did seem to prevent or delay further development of the same. On that basis I decided to continue with the supplements I was using on my horse, just in case!

 

[Wagtail]

Yet the vets all suggest putting the horse on a supplement. It really annoys me. I sometimes think it is just something to say when they are stumped as to the cause of a horse's stiffness.

I had a horse arrive here that could not be schooled and he looked practically crippled even walking around the arena. Owner had him on cortaflex and he had been on it for months with no improvement. When she went away on holiday and left me to exercise him, I immediately saw the cause of his problems. He had been (professionally) fitted with a narow saddle and he was a wide horse (with muscle wastage). I rang her and asked if I could try one of my saddles. The difference was instant! When she came back she had a horse that was schooling beautifully. Needless to say she got a different saddler and a new saddle.

 

[competitiondiva]

I think as with anything like this, it all depends on the individual, I have an elderly dog who was going to be pts earlier this year after developing a new patch of arthritis in her neck, after putting on her on a high dose of glucosamine and chondrotin she's back to an active life with and only having to take pain killers after a long ride out with the horse or over doing it chasing around with the other dogs at the yard. My horse has the same story, developed arthritic hocks and collateral ligament damage 15 months ago, and being almost written off any level of work, she's now back in full work and competed at a showing competition at the weekend and came 2nd in veteran and riding horse classes! So I would argue that for my animals the products I used worked. But I do think the individual product affects any outcome as much as the individuals response to it, I first tried equine answers premierflex ha and the equimins glucosamine and msn with no effect. But 12 weeks on vetvits equiflex and even the vet can't believe the difference!

bear in mind that glucosamine 2KCI is a little different to glucosamine HCL and will therefore have a different affect.

 

[Wagtail]

I would have agreed too but a friend who is some big bod research fellow and professor at a very good, old university reviewed the evidence and concluded that whilst supplements such as those mentioned had no effect on existing damage and disease, they did seem to prevent or delay further development of the same. On that basis I decided to continue with the supplements I was using on my horse, just in case!

Interesting point. I can see the logic in that. The problem is, with horses being so expensive as it is, not many people can afford to up the cost by £60 plus a months IN CASE something should happen. If you can afford it though, why not?

 

[Wagtail]

I think as with anything like this, it all depends on the individual, I have an elderly dog who was going to be pts earlier this year after developing a new patch of arthritis in her neck, after putting on her on a high dose of glucosamine and chondrotin she's back to an active life with and only having to take pain killers after a long ride out with the horse or over doing it chasing around with the other dogs at the yard. My horse has the same story, developed arthritic hocks and collateral ligament damage 15 months ago, and being almost written off any level of work, she's now back in full work and competed at a showing competition at the weekend and came 2nd in veteran and riding horse classes! So I would argue that for my animals the products I used worked. But I do think the individual product affects any outcome as much as the individuals response to it, I first tried equine answers premierflex ha and the equimins glucosamine and msn with no effect. But 12 weeks on vetvits equiflex and even the vet can't believe the difference!

bear in mind that glucosamine 2KCI is a little different to glucosamine HCL and will therefore have a different affect.

If it were not for the success story regarding your dog, then I would argue that maybe your horse's hock fused and he therefore became pain free? Arthritis is always changing and goes through painful and non painful stages. However, maybe the supplement you used DOES work. Anyone else used it with success?

 

[Jazzy B]

it depends at what stage the arthritis/joint deterioration is at. Most supplements on the market I believe can help but should not be seen as a cure. My old mare's arthritis became so bad in the end that not even cortaflex worked I do think it worked for a while though and definitely gave her a few more months.

 

[gill84]

Good old cheap cod liver oil keeps my girl supple and that gleam in her coat! Don't see the need in payin over the odds for chrodowotsits and msm!

 

[Dizzydancer]

These products actually only work for prevention. There is no cure for arthritis. I did feed supaflex to my old bo before his arthritis set in and i do think it helped keep him ridden for a few years extra. But now it would be pointless as the joints have changed in bone structure.
Once arthritis has ocured the joint changes are irriversible no matter how much glucosamine/msm or anything else you throw at them. They do however have a good track record of preventing deterioration if the arthritis is caught early enough, but in horses it generally isnt because they are well adept and being able to manage with a slight amount of reduced weight on one limb which we dont see until it becomes more severe as we see our animals everyday.

 

[BigRed]

I had a whippet who needed help to get out of her bed in the morning. We put her on Equine America Cortaflex for Dogs and I can only say the result was miraculous, within a few days she happily tottering around wagging her tail again. It made a huge difference to her mobility.

I do agree that these supplements all seem to be priced in the same bracket, which is clever marketing, designed to make the most money, but I think some horses are genuinely helped. I also think that some horse owners expect too much from supplements. Owners are so desperate to fix their horses they will try anything. 20 years ago these horses would have gone to the kennels, but now everyone wants to keep them into old age and expect to be able to ride them too.

 

[competitiondiva]

just wanted to also point out though that glucosamine does also have natural anti inflamatory properties. So whilst I agree there is no cure for arthritis, giving glucosamine can help prevent/slow down further development of it and aid in relieving pain of any arthritis currently there, without the need for harsh pain killers on a regular basis which imo is good, especially for saying equiflex is cheaper than bute!!

 

[M_G]

I have gone the homeopathic route for big ginger. To my surprise I found a call to Helios and £4.75 later I have 2-3 months supply of arthritis treatment that does work :0)

 

[Nevergrewup]

In my experience (I'm on my 3rd arthritic cob) different arthritis treatments can work better on some horses than others - which is also the view of my vet (!)

If you do decide to go to go down the Glucosamine route, it seems like a good idea to choose a joint supplement with the highest % of Glucosamine - some of the cheaper ones are a bit light on it...

 

[claireandnadia]

When I bought Nadia a few years back in the vetting the vet said that Nadia would be likely to develop arthritis and to put her on a supplement so I did and I must say although she does have stiff days she's not too bad, even in the winter.
I use naturalhorsesupplies.com for a mix that they do, equine answers, turmeric and oil.

 

[Kenzo]

I think they help as a preventative, obviously can’t help any damage that has already occurred, so if it means spending a little more than I like a month to give my horse hopefully a longer working life and possibly a little more comfort in retirement then I’m all for it or all for giving it a chance shall I say, maybe I'm a sucker who knows, but like everyone says, depends on the horse, there must be some medical evidence somewhere surely that proves feeding a good joint supplement has some form of benefit otherwise why is there such a big market for it and why do vets and doctors recommend them.

 

[dressagecrazy]

Ive used Joint Supps for years & i must of tried nearly everything on the market over these years not mentioning how much ive spent.

Last year i had to make changes as costs where getting out of hand, at the same time i had to go without a joing supp due to forgetting to re-order. 2 weeks went by & my horses seemed just the same, so i left them another 2 weeks. They where still the same, now just to clarify i do have aged horses here as well as youngters.

I am now nearly a year into not supplementing with a joint Supp & my 21yo & 26yo are showing no differences at all. So i have made the decision not to supplement any more.

I have for the last 3 years used Cartrophen for joint problems & have found this to make a difference. 2 of my horses have just started a course today.

 

[jsr]

My horse gets rosehips, my dogs get rosehips (18 year old is on Synflex too but with his joints he's getting anything and everything shoved down his throat to try help him ) and very soon I'll start taking it myself..if I actually remember!!

I'm with Kenzo I give all my animals it to maintain and hopefully avoid future problems as apart from 2 of my dogs the rest are younger animals and actually don't really need joint help right now. My horse is only 10 but does click without the rosehips, after a week on it the clicking stopped and in the 2 years he's been having it I feel he's more supple.

Use it because my brother has had osteoathritis (sp) since he was 25 and after trying everything going he's discovered rosehips were the one thing that really did take the edge off, it doesn't get rid of it completely but he's an extreame case so I'm guessing if it can help with some of his pain when he's in alot then it will certainly work as a maintance for me and my animals.

Plus its very cheap in comparision to everything else and if it doesn't work it's a good all round supplement anyway.

 

[Reacher]

This is spooky timing - I have knackered fingers and knackered knee, and have tried a combination of glucausamine, MSM and cod liver oil and rosehips and found no benefit! - so stopped taking them. But my knee is murder after an hour and half ride last night so have also doing a few searches today about supplements (in humans). Mostly saying that glucausamine / msm dont work.

But I'm still too chicken to take horse off his cosequin and cold liver oil!

Links attached

Effects of glucosamine, chondroitin, or placebo in patients with osteoarthritis of hip or knee: network meta-analysis
http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c4675

Antioxidants and antiinflammatory dietary supplements for osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20232616

Osteoarthritis and nutrition. From nutraceuticals to functional foods: a systematic review of the scientific evidence
http://arthritis-research.com/content/8/4/R127

- says Avocado/soybean unsaponifiables show symptom modifying effects but not joint narrowing effects. - but I'm going to try it on myself for a couple of months and see how it goes.

 

[Wagtail]

My horse gets rosehips, my dogs get rosehips (18 year old is on Synflex too but with his joints he's getting anything and everything shoved down his throat to try help him ) and very soon I'll start taking it myself..if I actually remember!!

I'm with Kenzo I give all my animals it to maintain and hopefully avoid future problems as apart from 2 of my dogs the rest are younger animals and actually don't really need joint help right now. My horse is only 10 but does click without the rosehips, after a week on it the clicking stopped and in the 2 years he's been having it I feel he's more supple.

Use it because my brother has had osteoathritis (sp) since he was 25 and after trying everything going he's discovered rosehips were the one thing that really did take the edge off, it doesn't get rid of it completely but he's an extreame case so I'm guessing if it can help with some of his pain when he's in alot then it will certainly work as a maintance for me and my animals.

Plus its very cheap in comparision to everything else and if it doesn't work it's a good all round supplement anyway.

In what form do you feed the rose hips? How do you take them yourself? In syrup?

 

[hessy12]

I disagree very strongly. My 18 y o has improved so much on equimins flexijoint (which has highest levels of any supplement in UK) and he is now sound, off bute and fit for hunting. My vet has been very impressed with this turnaround. Making sweeping statements saying they don't work, I think shows a little bit of ignorance, perhaps what you should've said is, they did not work for you!

 

[Wagtail]

This is spooky timing - I have knackered fingers and knackered knee, and have tried a combination of glucausamine, MSM and cod liver oil and rosehips and found no benefit! - so stopped taking them. But my knee is murder after an hour and half ride last night so have also doing a few searches today about supplements (in humans). Mostly saying that glucausamine / msm dont work.

But I'm still too chicken to take horse off his cosequin and cold liver oil!

Links attached

Effects of glucosamine, chondroitin, or placebo in patients with osteoarthritis of hip or knee: network meta-analysis
http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c4675

Antioxidants and antiinflammatory dietary supplements for osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20232616

Osteoarthritis and nutrition. From nutraceuticals to functional foods: a systematic review of the scientific evidence
http://arthritis-research.com/content/8/4/R127

- says Avocado/soybean unsaponifiables show symptom modifying effects but not joint narrowing effects. - but I'm going to try it on myself for a couple of months and see how it goes.

Let us know how it goes. Would be very interested.

 

[Wagtail]

I disagree very strongly. My 18 y o has improved so much on equimins flexijoint (which has highest levels of any supplement in UK) and he is now sound, off bute and fit for hunting. My vet has been very impressed with this turnaround. Making sweeping statements saying they don't work, I think shows a little bit of ignorance, perhaps what you should've said is, they did not work for you!

I was saying that was what the research has proven. Several studies have shown it does not work. I am not saying it is correct and was asking a question and inviting discussion.

The fact that it appears to have worked for one horse could be because of a number of factors:

The stage of the arthritis (as it does seem that such supplements are useful in preventing WORSTENING of joint damage.)

If the arthritis was in your horse's hocks, they could have fused and he would have become sound in any case.

Arthritis is not always painful at every stage. It flares up and then after new bone forms, can often become less painful. Not always of course.

The supplement works!

I am sorry if you feel that I am ignorant, but really pleased that your horse has recovered his mobility.

 

[jsr]

In what form do you feed the rose hips? How do you take them yourself? In syrup?

The horse and dogs get dried chopped bought from Feedmark. I've tried other suppliers but found their product superior so don't mind paying the extra. For myself (which I'm currently giving the younger dogs..cos I forgot to take it and it went past it's sell by date) I got it from Simply Supplements http://www.simplysupplements.net/product/508/rosehip-6000mg-maximum-strength/ .

I tried the horse on whole dried rosehips but found he found the taste unpalletable (sp) and was leaving them but the chopped dried he likes?? Strange creature.

 

[speedycivic]

After taking glucosamine myself for many months and finding absolutely no difference whatsoever, I decided to look into whether these supplements actually DO work. Asking around, it seems my experience and disappointment at the supplements is all too common. A quick google shows that recent research on humans shows that glucosamine and chondroitin do not work http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11330747 and that is only one of many links indicating just that.

So, are we wasting our money feeding them to our horses? I personally have never seen a difference and so don't bother, but with the price of some supplements (just because they are intended for the horse market) being very high, are we not being robbed blind?

Yay brilliant - will stop wasting my money on my own tablets then!

 

[galaxy]

Can't speak for all supplements, but Equiflex DOES work

I had used it on several horses before recommending it to a client who had a horse with alocking stifle who just could NOT canter with that leg on the inside. After 3/4 weeks of being on Equiflex he could canter on that leg and he never looked back.

There was no other change in his management other than the supplement and it had been going on quite a long time. The farrier also commented on how he held his leg better when his feet were done.

 

[JessandCharlie]

Some do, I can honestly say I have used them on horses and myself and notice a HUGE difference! BUT I don't feed MSM, chondroitin, Glucosamine etc, because I agree, I find they make no difference. They aren't the only options though, fear not

J&C

 

[marmalade76]

They aren't the only options though, fear not

J&C

Go on, spill!

 

[sonjafoers]

My husband has a plate in his neck which causes no end of problems & he definately knows when he has forgotten to take his cortaflex for a while.

On the other hand my arthritic dog had been on cosequin for some time and I couldn't see it made any difference at all - although obviously I couldn't ask her. My vet takes the dog cosequin himself and he says he does notice a difference so I guess it really is all down to the individual.