Jovian has died

sport horse said:
And what is more it is none of anyone else's business.
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In theory no, like most things it isn't anyone else's business but seeing as he's guilty of horse abuse more than once (see "improper use of a double bridle" in 2015) speculation is inevitable. Add to that how so many dressage horses are kept and handled, we need to start asking more, not fewer, questions.
 
tristars said:
Why geld him

If you have facilities no need.
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Why he was cut is not explained here, but there can be lots of very good reasons for gelding an older horse, nothing suspicious in that. And it is very likely that his long time groom and the staff will be terribly upset at losing him - it is very sad for them and the horse.
Also, any gelding is likely to have a more sociable future life than as a stallion (especially a valuable stallion), is far more likely to be turned out with and ride out with and be stabled closely with other horses - although possibly not the Helgstrand Dressage priority, here.
It’s surprising since the performance genetics are presumably sought after, but Jovian probably didn’t cover naturally, and there’s probably already plenty in store.
Hope he didn’t suffer from the op, poor lad.
 
It seems quite quick - the timing of the castration - as he can't have been home long from the Europeans, surely?

Wouldn't you give him a rest period before putting him through elective surgery? I would for any horse I was responsible for.

Perhaps he suddenly developed an inguinal hernia? Doubtful, but it's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for a sudden castration. It could also explain why they're not being too specific about details.
 
PurpleSpots said:
It seems quite quick - the timing of the castration - as he can't have been home long from the Europeans, surely?

Wouldn't you give him a rest period before putting him through elective surgery? I would for any horse I was responsible for.

Perhaps he suddenly developed an inguinal hernia? Doubtful, but it's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for a sudden castration. It could also explain why they're not being too specific about details.
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I don’t really understand this attitude- surgery is something you recover from and being fit will help, not hinder that.
Why would he need to rest before surgery?

There are loads of other good medical reasons why castration would be needed, including in an emergency situation
 
Exasperated said:
Why he was cut is not explained here, but there can be lots of very good reasons for gelding an older horse, nothing suspicious in that. And it is very likely that his long time groom and the staff will be terribly upset at losing him - it is very sad for them and the horse.
Also, any gelding is likely to have a more sociable future life than as a stallion (especially a valuable stallion), is far more likely to be turned out with and ride out with and be stabled closely with other horses - although possibly not the Helgstrand Dressage priority, here.
It’s surprising since the performance genetics are presumably sought after, but Jovian probably didn’t cover naturally, and there’s probably already plenty in store.
Hope he didn’t suffer from the op, poor lad.
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I wonder if his groom etc were upset that jovian was ridden by helgstrand as well

We can see it is not explained why he was gelded i have not said it is suspicious

I am aware thank you, of reasons for gelding older stallions, personally I consider it a risk unless very good reasons, why risk losing a good horse even a small risk.

Most stallions can be socialised fully or to some extent so they can be with other horses, most of it is how they are reared and early methods of management, some stallions are so hot their brains are over taken by their drives and caution is needed at all times, however with great efforts at lot can be done to alleviate their tension

Our stallion is ridden near to others, turns out in Winter with geldings, grooms over stable wall to horse next door and turns out next to others all year, he is super hot by nature, the effort put into doing this is huge but worth it

Many many stallions compete internationally and warm up with others and never get gelded
 
TheMule said:
I don’t really understand this attitude- surgery is something you recover from and being fit will help, not hinder that.
Why would he need to rest before surgery?

There are loads of other good medical reasons why castration would be needed, including in an emergency situation
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Well the competition venue was 1000 miles away from his yard, assuming he lived at Vodskov, Denmark. That's nearly 16hrs travelling time each way by normal car. If he lived at Syke, Germany, it's over 600 miles away, and over 10hrs each way by car.

He didn't qualify for the GP to music, so last competition day was August 28th August. Assuming they left the next day and didn't stay to watch the last round of the competition (they may have, I have no idea), he travelled home on August 29th. For me, putting a horse through fairly major elective surgery just 5 days later would be a bit quick.

The body needs time to recuperate from the stresses of travelling that far, acclimatising to the venue, competing in two classes, and however careful one might be there's always the biosecurity risk given that there were a great many other horses around. Yes, horses' heath is monitored at FEI events, but there is always a risk. For example, the incubation period of equine influenza is known to be up to 5 days. Obviously other diseases have an incubation period too, this is just an example. For me, it would be very minimal to wait this minimal amount of time before elective surgery for this reason alone - I'd want to know for sure the horse was fully clear of viral or bacterial challenges before stressing the body further.

A maximum of 5 days to expect a horses' body to have fully recovered from all of this, and be in prime vigour to tolerate elective surgery would not be enough for me, hence wondering whether the surgery was not solely elective. Perhaps others see a GA as a lesser thing (I can't imagine he'd've been done standing given all considerations to the situation) but it's quite a major thing in my opinion, and one I'd want to set the horse up as well as possible for. I appreciate that emergency surgeries happen in less than perfect scenarios for the horse (and that it may well impact on recovery time/success rates) but this was said to be a thoroughly thought out elective surgery. It happened quickly after the Europeans for me, and that is why I commented as I did.
 
tristars said:
I wonder if his groom etc were upset that jovian was ridden by helgstrand as well

We can see it is not explained why he was gelded i have not said it is suspicious

I am aware thank you, of reasons for gelding older stallions, personally I consider it a risk unless very good reasons, why risk losing a good horse even a small risk.

Most stallions can be socialised fully or to some extent so they can be with other horses, most of it is how they are reared and early methods of management, some stallions are so hot their brains are over taken by their drives and caution is needed at all times, however with great efforts at lot can be done to alleviate their tension

Our stallion is ridden near to others, turns out in Winter with geldings, grooms over stable wall to horse next door and turns out next to others all year, he is super hot by nature, the effort put into doing this is huge but worth it

Many many stallions compete internationally and warm up with others and never get gelded
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Ok, you don’t like Helgstrand, and not on your own.
You turn your stallions out with geldings, done so myself, and also with mares - dependent on the stallion - other people don’t, all for individualised, situational, reasons.
You never geld yours, others do.
Best bet would be to write to Helgstrand Dressage and ask if they will provide more detail, on the decision and outcome, and if they think you have a right to know - can explain things themselves.
Hypothesising, guessing and generally stirring the pot on social media are most unlikely to achieve this.
 
It's not stirring any pot for anyone on here to wonder why, the horse is high profile for one reason his rider for another

Why in God's name would anyone write to him. Your idea, you write, then inform us nosey people to end speculation, betcha wouldn't have the nerve

And its true others don't turn out stallions,poor old totilas was too hot to turn out apparently, and that all ended badly.

I have gelded older stallions in the past

Thanks for the lecture , again
 
PurpleSpots said:
Well the competition venue was 1000 miles away from his yard, assuming he lived at Vodskov, Denmark. That's nearly 16hrs travelling time each way by normal car. If he lived at Syke, Germany, it's over 600 miles away, and over 10hrs each way by car.

He didn't qualify for the GP to music, so last competition day was August 28th August. Assuming they left the next day and didn't stay to watch the last round of the competition (they may have, I have no idea), he travelled home on August 29th. For me, putting a horse through fairly major elective surgery just 5 days later would be a bit quick.

The body needs time to recuperate from the stresses of travelling that far, acclimatising to the venue, competing in two classes, and however careful one might be there's always the biosecurity risk given that there were a great many other horses around. Yes, horses' heath is monitored at FEI events, but there is always a risk. For example, the incubation period of equine influenza is known to be up to 5 days. Obviously other diseases have an incubation period too, this is just an example. For me, it would be very minimal to wait this minimal amount of time before elective surgery for this reason alone - I'd want to know for sure the horse was fully clear of viral or bacterial challenges before stressing the body further.

A maximum of 5 days to expect a horses' body to have fully recovered from all of this, and be in prime vigour to tolerate elective surgery would not be enough for me, hence wondering whether the surgery was not solely elective. Perhaps others see a GA as a lesser thing (I can't imagine he'd've been done standing given all considerations to the situation) but it's quite a major thing in my opinion, and one I'd want to set the horse up as well as possible for. I appreciate that emergency surgeries happen in less than perfect scenarios for the horse (and that it may well impact on recovery time/success rates) but this was said to be a thoroughly thought out elective surgery. It happened quickly after the Europeans for me, and that is why I commented as I did.
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I agree

I understood that very fit athletes immunity is compromised to some extent

Adjustments to feeding and water etc
 
tristars said:
It's not stirring any pot for anyone on here to wonder why, the horse is high profile for one reason his rider for another

Why in God's name would anyone write to him. Your idea, you write, then inform us nosey people to end speculation, betcha wouldn't have the nerve

And its true others don't turn out stallions,poor old totilas was too hot to turn out apparently, and that all ended badly.

I have gelded older stallions in the past

Thanks for the lecture , again
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Because I don’t need to know, debate it, or anything else - only sorry he didn’t recover.
 
What ever will we discuss on here if we stop debating and discussing equestrian topics that are in the news. Isn't that the point of the forum and social media in general. There are already a number of topics banned by admin such as confectionery, saddle pads, certain fb pages, hoof care protocols, gender issues, dodgy dealers etc etc.
 
tristars said:
I understood that very fit athletes immunity is compromised to some extent
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Absolutely true, and the timing is a bit bizarre to be so soon after the Euros (but maybe they were really struggling with handling him? Who knows their reasoning) but I would imagine that he didn't die of an infection - usually takes nigh on a week for horses to show symptoms of post-castration infection, and they're often - not always, but usually - fixable. Especially with the level of vet care and funds they would have been able to throw at this horse. I'd imagine for him to actually die/emergency PTS something horrendous must have happened - broken leg in recovery, catastrophic bleed, evisceration, an anaesthetic complication or the likes. All of which are awful and you can't predict unfortunately. Poor horse and poor vets who had to try dealing with that.
 
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