Jump judging at BE rather than local level.. Question?

[mulledwhine]

I jump judged at a bE event yesterday ( my first BE event )

It was lovely and friendly and I really enjoyed it, but me and my pal had a minor telling off

At pC events if a horse misses a jump completely they have to leave the course, apparently at BE level the can be left to run ( which I think makes more sense)

This confusion in rules caused a minor problem at a local event I recently judged at, and now I understand why!

Even thought the rules are posted everywhere at the pC events, I can understand where the confusion comes from !

Should there be uniformity across the board ?

Discuss

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

It is always Control's decision as to whether a horse is allowed to run on under those circumstances at BE events. I think as a fence judge you only have the authority to tell someone to leave the course for three refusals at your fence or a horse fall.

I've never judged at PC - do all fence judges have radios? I think now we have communication so easily the fence judge gets less authority at BE.

 

[mulledwhine]

You Are right, which is why we made the mistake

All judges have radios, but we were told that an elemination ment leave the course!!!

My friend stopped the horse!!!

After she did that the control said we should have let them run ( again I think that I a good idea )

PC we have to ask them to leave the course, which holds every thing up!!!

Refusals I agree with x

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

At one event my friend and I eliminated a rider for three refusals at a ditch, one element of fence 4 or 5 on the course. I think we were quite lenient but eventually after telling her that we had recorded the first two refusals, at the message 'third refusal, I'm sorry you are eliminated, please leave the course at walk' the rider shook her head and carried on instead. We told Control, and they decided to let her carry on. So even if you eliminate them and ask them to leave the course they still might get to go round the rest of the course.

 

[dunkley]

I have done a fair amount of FJ at BE, from BE90 to 3*, and would never stop a horse for missing my fence. As a fence judge I would only stop if I were a recognised stopping point, and told to do so by control. All you need to do is record on your scoresheet that NoXXX missed the fence, put a big fat 'E' in the total column, and the scorers will sort it all out at the end. Report it straightaway to control via the radio, and chances are they will announce the elimination as part of their commentary and the rider won't get too much of a shock when they check their score! The only time I would ask a rider to leave the course is if they were eliminated at my fence. If a rider was asked to leave the course at BE, and refused to do so, 'someone' would be having very strong words afterwards

 

[mulledwhine]

3 refusals were made to leave the course , but missing a jump were allowed to finish !

As I said before I understand that allows for the programme to Finnish on time, as there are no horses leaving the field at walk!!!

But it made it confusing until we realised that 3 refusals had to leave the course.... But missing out a jump ( which is an elimination ) were allowed to continue!!!

I had just never encountered that before!!

 

[mulledwhine]

Dunkley - that is what happened thank you

All the other events I have have done have asked for the wrong course taken have been asked to leave x

 

[mrussell]

They arent elimated until they actually jump the NEXT fence...so it would not be your job to tell them to leave the course.

I would radio the failure over to Control who would decide what to do.

Sometimes the TA comes to see you to ask you to describe what happened before they make a final decision.

 

[Magnetic Sparrow]

It's all down to the TD. He (I've only ever seen blokes in that role) decides what should be done: some let them run, some may ask a fence further on the course to stop them with a red flag and tell them to walk home. I think BE are a little bit jittery about health and safety and not letting unsafe combinations run on, but also conscious that competitors have paid a big chunk of money to compete and not wanting to ruin someone's day if the combination is fundamentally safe.

 

[mulledwhine]

Agreed

To me though it makes more sense to let them run, but our mistake was stopping them

I think more clarity on the rules should be known

Otherwise smaller events lead themselves into arguments!

 

[bollybop]

I've fence judged at a fair few be events and pc events. I don't see that there needs to be any more clarity on the rules, listen to the rules at the briefing.

In all the briefings I have been to in BE it has been over emphasised you do not stop a horse unless you are told to by control, unless it is a dire emergency, ie rider fall behind a fence and another horse quickly approaching

 

[mulledwhine]

At our PC events the emphasis is put on asking the rider to leave the course if they take the wrong course!!!

And there lies the confusion

 

[HuggyBear]

We had multiple combinations miss a fence at Kelsall this weekend- The first one I reported they allowed to continue (I reported it once they had jumped the flags of the next fence which I was also reporting on) but the next ones after that they told the next stopping point to bring them to a halt. So, I think it does come down to the moment decision at BE.

 

[popsdosh]

As mentioned before you cannot stop anybody for missing your fence as they are not eliminated until they jump the next fence.Then control will stop them .PC are incorrect in stopping straight away in those circumstances!

 

[bollybop]

The pc events I have been to have never told you to pull someone off course of your on accord

 

[Lexi_]

I've only ever done BE events but we're always told to wait from an instruction from Control before stopping a horse or asking it to leave the course. The only exceptions would be if a combination has three refusals at your fence or if for whatever reason a horse hasn't been stopped earlier on course and is bearing down on you and you know there's an incident on the other side of the fence (unlikely but I've known it to happen).

If it's a case of cumulative refusals on course then Control are the best people to keep track of this as it's possible that FJs can mishear reports over the radio or get different horses mixed up. I've had to stop someone and ask them to leave but only on Control's instructions and I'm pretty sure we were a couple of fences after the one where they had their 4th refusal.

At Catton Park we had at least 4 horses sail merrily past our fence in the woods and like Huggybear mentioned, it happened a few times at Kelsall at the weekend. At the lower levels the powers that be seem quite happy to let them continue and finish their round despite missing out a fence/jumping one from a different class - the commentator never mentions it till after they've completed though. Perhaps they're more likely to stop them the higher up the grades the class is?

 

[Jnhuk]

I think you need to be aware that different events have different rules.

BE briefings can also vary a lot in how they go through rules. Some spend a lot of time on it, others just skim through them. Some will visit you at your fence before the XC start in case you have any questions and some will want to discuss black flag alternatives etc... It does vary but control always instructs you if you are to stop a horse or if four cumulative refusals then will ask them to be stopped and leave the course.

As someone who has missed out a jump on a XC fence, I was allowed to continue and didn't know until the commentator announced it after I had finished the course. At the end of the day I suspect they are more bothered about combinations that are refusing than those with sat nav failure for safety aspects and also keeping the take offs in good condition

 

[fabscd]

I think the main reason behind a horse and rider being pulled off course at a BE event is to ensure the safety of them and others. So cumulative/many refusals would deem you unsafe to continue, as would dangerous riding. Missing out a fence in itself isn't dangerous, in fact at an event i was at recently (UA but at a BE venue with much the same organising team) almost 20% of a class missed out one particular fence, all were allowed to continue if there weren't any other issues. I was one of those who missed the fence and was glad that we were allowed to continue as i was more bothered about the quality of the round rather than my actual score.
I think the issue here is that people need to be aware of the rules they are running/judging under. I have FJ'd at BE and UA events on many occasions and have always found BE to be very easy to deal with in terms of what i should and shouldn't be doing as a FJ. Exceptional circumstances aside, Control's instructions are law, if Control has not told me to pull someone off course, i allow them to run. If i have concerns i will report to control, but they are the only ones with the full picture, and the Steward/TD are the ones with the accountability at the end of the day, so i would always refer to control before pulling someone off course.

 

[wench]

I once witnessed a fence judge at my local be event stop two or three riders at her fence. I think she had stopped three in total , all of which she did of her own accord. The first one was acceptable as there were two horses close together and the first horse had dumped its rider on the landing side of the fence after this particular fj's. the fj then proceeded to stop the next two riders, without being told (I was also fj, had a radio, and could see both fences and what was going on), and one of the riders she stopped was willie fp or mark Todd.

The td had strong words with her that day.

 

[MiaBella]

I can see the confusion, at PC/RC/Unaff events there isn't often a 'control' and fence judges are expected to do more decision making at times (not all non-BE events are the same) - and of course whilst BE do fence judge briefings they don't cover every eventuality (often better info is given on day two after they have seen what caused issues on day one).

Fence judging at BE isn't an easy job, with all the timings etc, but hopefully you will do it again (every volunteer is appreciated) and it might be worth mentioning to your local unaff events (PC/RC/whatever) so they can improve their briefings.

As others have posted on here, at BE Control has final say and if you aren't sure you can always radio to control to ask them.

 

[ArcticFox]

my understanding is that:

3 refusals at your fence, horse is asked to walk off the course - usually we are told this at the briefing in the morning.

Horse fall - you are to announce this over the walkie talkie to get the vet as the horse is not allowed to go anywhere until vet check

anything else - eg missing fence etc - you are not to do anything until TD has told you to. I have found previously that you can listen over the walkie talkie and hear a horse gathering more than 4 refusals so when they come to your fence you know they should be stopped, however you are NOT allowed to stop them unless the TD gives you instruction to do so.

Most smaller unaffiliated events, I have seen riders allowed to continue regardless of how many refusals they get. unaffiliated is much more confusing imho,

 

[Tiddlypom]

I FJ'd at Kelsall at the w/e, my first stint after many years break from volunteering.

The TD gave a very clear and informative briefing on all the rules, which I was very grateful for! Even so, it must be remembered that volunteers have given up their time and may, on occasion, get in a bit of a muddle in a particular situation in the heat of the moment.

My fence was straightforward but even so, I had to override my instincts when a slow combination approaching my fence was being rapidly caught up by a faster horse following closely behind. I dearly wanted to stop the slower combo but with the TD's briefing ringing in my ears, and having not heard anything from Control, I didn't. (The slower combo pulled over to one side immediately afterwards, before the next jump instead, although I couldn't see if the FJ was involved in that.) The situation developed so quickly that we didn't have time to alert Control to the closeness of the competitors in advance.

It can be hard to do nothing when you want to do 'something', even if that 'something' may not the best course of action in the grand scheme of things! Control has the bigger picture in mind and has to be trusted to do the right thing.

 

[Lexi_]

Tiddlypom, if that overtaking situation you mention happened on the Saturday, you did nothing wrong! It was just one of those things - Control was checking something with an FJ elsewhere on the course when the two horses started to get close together and there was no gap in transmission to radio through to say how close they were until they were practically at your fence. They usually rely on the slower rider to get out of the way and wait anyway

 

[Tiddlypom]

Thanks, Lexi, yes that would have been us at fence 16 on the Saturday! I was blaming myself for not having noticed until too late, we were just focussing on the slow rider and simply didn't notice the quick one following until late on. Thanks for that, it has been bothering me since it happened.