Jumping position help please...

[kirstyhen]

I'm hoping TarrSteps sees this and gives me one of her amazing tips to solve the problem, but I'll take any advice!

My problem is I do everything too early over a fence - I'm folding before the horse is really jumping and then I'm sitting up as we go over the fence which means by the time I'm landing, I'm leaning back like it's a 10ft drop the other side and my lower leg is shooting forwards. So I'm always having to gather my reins back up after landing as I slip them to sit back without socking her in the chops.

I really thought about it whilst jumping tonight, but it just doesn't seemed to have helped

This is a video from tonight, it's probably better than normal on this too as I was concious of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZpYqiuHkg

 

[SpottedCat]

I can't see you doing anything wrong?!

 

[sam-b]

I dont think you are as bad as you think you are, try just telling yourself , wait, wait, on your approach

 

[kirstyhen]

I get told off in my lessons for going with my shoulders to early and sitting up too soon, it's worse when I have to turn in the air, I can hear my arse slap off the saddle and I think it's making Mal take the back rail off Oxers.

Maybe it's not as bad as I think in the video from tonight, I'm definitely doing it in this one, although as we appear to be hurdling the fences, that could be why

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjlpozD307o

 

[LEC]

I have a problem with my shoulders but it has been erased with some drilling - I think its a tall persons problem!

You look just a touch forwards in your shoulders going into the fence. I think you need to think about opening the shoulders more and pulling them back and waiting for the horses shoulders to come up. I think this will then slow you down on the rest.

Watch Ben Maher for a beautiful shoulders position.

 

[BombayMix]

My daughter did exactly the same as you are except probably worse - she was helped to eradicate it by thinking about sitting "up, up, up" constantly with her body and at the same time making sure her bottom was very deep in the saddle so that she wasn't already half the way out of the saddle (if that makes sense) she could get it at home quite easily but it took her a while to get right competing as you have 500 other things to think about but constant drilling at home means she is now much better in genera but definitely at competitions

 

[kirstyhen]

Thanks LEC, my shoulders are forever creeping forwards, so I think you've probably hit the nail on the head! I reckon you're right about it being a tall persons problem, I think mine comes from outgrowing my ponies and trying to make myself looking smaller to get away with it!

I think I've beeing trying to sort the problem as I'm going over the fence, when in actual fact I need to wait longer in front of the fence. Will give it a go the next time I jump.

 

[KatB]

You're not going forwards too early, just sitting up fractionally too quickly I think. It's something I used to do a lot, and have now got a lot better, by thinking of keeping my seat light for a stride after the fence. This stops you sitting your arse down too quickly, but means you can have the feeling of keeping your hands forward and head up. It works for me, but not sure it makes any sense to anyone else Also, keeping your hands forward and your head up will help keep you shoulders up too, I find anyway, as your hands follow the horses neck instead of your shoulers quite so much!

 

[kirstyhen]

My daughter did exactly the same as you are except probably worse - she was helped to eradicate it by thinking about sitting "up, up, up" constantly with her body and at the same time making sure her bottom was very deep in the saddle so that she wasn't already half the way out of the saddle (if that makes sense) she could get it at home quite easily but it took her a while to get right competing as you have 500 other things to think about but constant drilling at home means she is now much better in genera but definitely at competitions

I think if I try this I'll end up hollowing her in front of the fence I seem to go from one extreme to the other when trying to solve a problem, my Instructor told me to sit deeper in the saddle and then instantly told me off for sitting too deep

 

[chatter1]

Clearly you need to go back to basics......

 

[kirstyhen]

You're not going forwards too early, just sitting up fractionally too quickly. It's something I used to do a lot, and have now got a lot better, by thinking of keeping my seat light for a stride after the fence. This stops you sitting your arse down too quickly, but means you can have the feeling of keeping your hands forward and head up. It works for me, but not sure it makes any sense to anyone else

JB tells me to follow her over the fence, but I can't seem to keep in my head, so was hoping to get a tip on here that would stick a bit more!
I do get told of for going with my shoulders too early, so that is definitely a problem I have too Just not sure which problem in the main one!!

 

[kirstyhen]

Clearly you need to go back to basics......

It's probably all that shoddy advice I got at Burgie a few years ago...

 

[chatter1]

It's probably all that shoddy advice I got at Burgie a few years ago...

I think you'll find it was that advice that got you where you are today my girl.....

 

[kirstyhen]

I think you'll find it was that advice that got you where you are today my girl.....

You're right... TableDancer gives outstanding advice

 

[Mince Pie]

I think you'll find it was that advice that got you where you are today my girl.....

Asking for advice on her jumping position on a forum...

 

[kirstyhen]

Asking for advice on her jumping position on a forum...

Hahaha!

 

[TarrSteps]

Comedy stuff! Now I'm afraid to reply.

 

[kirstyhen]

You'd better! Im relying on you to give me one tiny nugget that solves all my problems for free

 

[TarrSteps]

Free??? FREE??? My invoice will be dropping through your letter box, tout suite!

Okay, for what it's worth, it looks damn good and you know it. But I've now watched it in "stop motion" on my shiny new iPad (okay, not technically mine but I can use it on insomniac's hours) and I think you do maybe have a teeny, tiny point, in that you are coming back a bit in the air and getting not exactly left but a bit out of synch on the landing.

First point, jumping over about 1.10 isn't really "the same but higher" as you get "air time" rather than the horse just stepping over the fence in a giant canter stride. This also goes to the discussion of why still shots of people jumping big jumps don't always look perfect - depending on the horse and the moment there can be a tremendous amount of force in play and people develop different ways of accommodating that.

So perhaps your very useful "hips away from hands" approach is not serving you quite as well now you're jumping bigger. Actually you are much better over the first two jumps (even though they are smaller) in that you "leave the horse a space to jump in to" (my fav phrase) whereas at the last jump you do throw your upper body at her a bit, so meet her coming down as she's coming up. This isn't about sitting down in the saddle (that's a valid style but sitting up and sitting down are two different things!) it's about keeping the back flat and relaxed, the hip supple and again, thinking about leaving that space for the horse to jump into, both under your seat and in front of you. This would be even more pronounced in a grid, where you're not jumping so much across the jump as around it.

I think we had the discussion here a while back about imagining something unpleasant on your horse's neck to keep from dropping your shoulder. One suggestion was dog poo (blech - I think that might make me just get off the horse!) but mine was imagining a big rusty spike. I like that one as it keeps you a good way off the neck! (Again, jumping big jumps, the horse might come up a long way in the air and the rider might end up very close but it's the HORSE closing the angle, not the rider.)

And yes, it is definitely a tall person's thing. But that's also why it's important for tall people to get a handle on it, because we will have more influence on the physics of the horse's jump.

Just as you take off you are rolling over your knee a tiny bit and almost resting your hands on the neck. It's not much (does it come from thinking you might catch her in the mouth?) but it's enough to get you every so slightly playing "catch up" in the air. Can you think of pushing your body away from your hands a bit? Lower leg a bit more forwards/weight slightly more in the heel? Flattening your back instead of arching it to compensate for wanting to drop your shoulder? Play with a few adjustments over smaller stuff and see what feels better. I'd say, though, keep thinking about giving her a space to jump into.

 

[kirstyhen]

See, I knew you'd help!

Overall I am pleased with my position, but I want it to be better, so 'damn good' isn't good enough I've also watched it in slow motion, so am majorly obsessing over the tiny bits

The 'rusty spike' is a good one, dog poo is just revolting :vomit: I think 'leave the horse space to jump into' is my favourite, I will be chanting that on approach from now on

I think the rolling my knee and resting my hands comes from the last year of jumping Hen, when it was very hit and miss when he would take off, if at all, so I've got into the habit of bracing for a stop by pushing on to the neck.

Do you think my shoulder blades need to be flatter on my back? I was wondering if taping might help make me aware of when my shoulders round forwards. I think because I'm aware of my lower leg going forwards on landing, I've been thinking of keeping it back, when I should have it forwards!

 

[kirstyhen]

I should also maybe point out that I don't make a habit of jumping big jumps on my baby horse! I only really jump in my lessons once a month and at competitions, this was an extra session to work on what JB picked up on last time.
It was also not my intention to jump as big, but I have a rather over-enthusiastic pair of jump putter-uppers in my Father and OH.
Just in case anyone was thinking I was a mental person who jumped her horse into the ground!

 

[kerilli]

that's all good advice, obv. I think you look good, just not perfect enough for you i guess...
the 'imagine there's a big spike sticking out of the horse's withers' image is a LG one. she refers to that area as the Danger Area, does that help?
i think it is a Tall Person's Thing, definitely. I've always done it, far worse than you tbh.
One thing that really really helps me on the approach to a fence, when I remember it, is to chant in time with the canter stride (if i can get Nelly The Elephant out of my head for 1 second... thanks GB for that one) "I can hold her with my should- ers"... this keeps my torso up (but not sitting down) and my shoulders up and back, and sometimes even prevents me going to the hand...

i love the idea of 'leaving the horse the space to jump into', never heard that. having said which, one of the best feelings in the world is a horse that REALLY operates and hits you in the chest when it comes up through the shoulder really well over a decent fence... or is that a feeling that those with perfect position never experience?!

 

[kirstyhen]

I wish I was as obsessive about other things in life as I am about riding!

i love the idea of 'leaving the horse the space to jump into', never heard that. having said which, one of the best feelings in the world is a horse that REALLY operates and hits you in the chest when it comes up through the shoulder really well over a decent fence... or is that a feeling that those with perfect position never experience?!

That is definitely in my top ten of favourite TarrSteps' sayings

I experienced that for the first time last night, Mally just about winded me with her withers!

 

[lex2501]

I too am quite tall and have the same habit... and also study videos and cringe!

I use a very similar idea to "giving the horse space to jump". I always think about letting the horse close the gap. i.e. let him fill the space as he comes up with his shoulders.

Interestingly, I only do it on one of my horses - the one who gives a much bigger feel over a fence (even though he is the one I jump smaller tracks on ). It might be worth hopping on another horse and seeing if there is a difference?

 

[kirstyhen]

I jump a few horses and pretty sure I do it on all of them if anything, my position is probably better on Mal because I trust her so much and she jumps very smoothly and consistently.

I teach my kids that the horse goes up to meet their shoulders when they jump, they don't go down to meet it, so its not an ailien concept to me. I just obviously can't get it into my own head I'm hoping at least one of these says sticks!

 

[Gracie21]

Video looks lovely! Noone is perfect!

Try counting into the fence, it helps the kids I teach and takes there mind off the fence ahead, so they tend to go with the horse more naturally

Give it a try, over analysing yourself will make yourself lose confidence and then all sorts of problems will start

 

[Tnavas]

Free??? FREE??? My invoice will be dropping through your letter box, tout suite!

Okay, for what it's worth, it looks damn good and you know it. But I've now watched it in "stop motion" on my shiny new iPad (okay, not technically mine but I can use it on insomniac's hours) and I think you do maybe have a teeny, tiny point, in that you are coming back a bit in the air and getting not exactly left but a bit out of synch on the landing.

First point, jumping over about 1.10 isn't really "the same but higher" as you get "air time" rather than the horse just stepping over the fence in a giant canter stride. This also goes to the discussion of why still shots of people jumping big jumps don't always look perfect - depending on the horse and the moment there can be a tremendous amount of force in play and people develop different ways of accommodating that.

So perhaps your very useful "hips away from hands" approach is not serving you quite as well now you're jumping bigger. Actually you are much better over the first two jumps (even though they are smaller) in that you "leave the horse a space to jump in to" (my fav phrase) whereas at the last jump you do throw your upper body at her a bit, so meet her coming down as she's coming up. This isn't about sitting down in the saddle (that's a valid style but sitting up and sitting down are two different things!) it's about keeping the back flat and relaxed, the hip supple and again, thinking about leaving that space for the horse to jump into, both under your seat and in front of you. This would be even more pronounced in a grid, where you're not jumping so much across the jump as around it.

I think we had the discussion here a while back about imagining something unpleasant on your horse's neck to keep from dropping your shoulder. One suggestion was dog poo (blech - I think that might make me just get off the horse!) but mine was imagining a big rusty spike. I like that one as it keeps you a good way off the neck! (Again, jumping big jumps, the horse might come up a long way in the air and the rider might end up very close but it's the HORSE closing the angle, not the rider.)

And yes, it is definitely a tall person's thing. But that's also why it's important for tall people to get a handle on it, because we will have more influence on the physics of the horse's jump.

Just as you take off you are rolling over your knee a tiny bit and almost resting your hands on the neck. It's not much (does it come from thinking you might catch her in the mouth?) but it's enough to get you every so slightly playing "catch up" in the air. Can you think of pushing your body away from your hands a bit? Lower leg a bit more forwards/weight slightly more in the heel? Flattening your back instead of arching it to compensate for wanting to drop your shoulder? Play with a few adjustments over smaller stuff and see what feels better. I'd say, though, keep thinking about giving her a space to jump into.

THIS ^^^^^^ great reply Tarrsteps

 

[Festive_Felicitations]

Firstly - that last fence makes Mal look like a pony!

As a fellow tall person used to riding a horse that will stop you have my sympathy and we share all the same faults! though mine are far more glaring!
An exercise my instructor had me doing that seemed to really help was to get a good canter, then go into 2-point a slowly straighten up so I was sitting up with DR rider hands and back strtaight (so as straight as possible back but still keeping your balance, shoulders back, eyes up). Canter like that and then when I was 'comfortable' turn and jump a simple 4 fence course but I had to look at him over every fence.

Result was that I started to sit up straight, not lean on the horses neck and not get in front or behind of the motion as I had to do it be 'feel' as I wasn't looking at the fence an so anticipating.
Once I got the feel for we slowly introduced more fences, not looking at him over them, and slighlty less extreme DR rider- SJer hybrid position
NB this was over 80 - 90cm fences only!

I dont know if that makes any sense but it really helped me.

 

[ecrozier]

No useful help as despite not being particularly tall I think I do this too and much worse than you Kirsty! Definately more of a problem on roo who gives me much more of a 'jump' than little J. I have been working on as Kat said trying to stay in a light seat for the first stride after landing, but I may have gone too far in trying to correct this now and end up a bit too far forward on landing!

 

[Polotash]

You look pretty good to me!

This is a great exercise on the ground, which might help your muscle memory, although I usually use it for beginners so you may already find you can do it no problems!

Put a round jumping pole flat on the ground (the fatter the pole and the smoother it's machined the harder it is).

Stand on the pole, with the balls of your feet on the pole as if it were stirrups, so your heel is lower than your toe with a stretch in the calf. Adopt normal flat work position, so a bend in the knees, and elbows bent, hands out in front on imaginary reins, but ear-shoulder-hip-heel in line (otherwise you'll wobble off).

Now, smoothly shift into jumping position... more bend in knee, weight down into heels, shoulders forward. You may find you wobble, but you should be able to use your core muscles and the weight in your legs to hold your jumping position, then shift smoothly back into normal flat work position.

This is particularly good for people who flick their lower leg back (i.e. towards their bums) as they jump, but it should also highlight any other imbalances in position, so if you feel your shoulders go too far down when jumping and you do this on the pole you'll wobble off forwards...