Just how..?

HaplessHorse

HaplessHorse

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Ponies are now demolishing 3kg double netted trickle (3cm hole) nets in (I think) about 4 hours. These were supposed to last them the whole night.

I noticed that they’d started cribbing again (which mine only do if left without hay for too long) a week ago, so I kept an eye on them the other night, and they ate just under 1kg in an hour. I increased their portion to 4kg, which I suspect is still being demolished within 6 hours, which isn’t adequate for a 12-hour night.

I genuinely have no idea what to do anymore. They’re both natives who pile on the pounds.

I don’t have the facilities/time to soak hay for more than 1/2 an hour (in cold water).

I don’t have the facilities to soak more than one hay net simultaneously (there is a finite amount of water, reliant on a tank, and only one soaking bucket anyway)

I don’t have the facilities to store both straw and hay.

Do I start triple netting??? 🤦‍♀️🙁
 
I wouldn't expect one net to last anything overnight. I'm sorry to sound blunt but I don't understand why people are continuously shocked by the fact that ginormous animals who are literally designed to eat 23 hours a day eat a lot of forage.

And sticking my head above the parapet I do feel that double netting and trickle netting is cruel and a precursor to musculoskeletal and dental issues. There are so many problems that come from horses not eating enough forage continuously and getting a bit lard is probably quite far down the priority list tbh. Can you up the exercise? People are going to say 'You've clearly never had a good dooer' - apart from a couple TBs, that's literally all I've ever had, and I've never had to restrict hay if exercised enough/they haven't been on cow grazing.
 
IrishMilo said:
I wouldn't expect one net to last anything overnight. I'm sorry to sound blunt but I don't understand why people are continuously shocked by the fact that ginormous animals who are literally designed to eat 23 hours a day eat a lot of forage.

And sticking my head above the parapet I do feel that double netting and trickle netting is cruel and a precursor to musculoskeletal and dental issues. There are so many problems that come from horses not eating enough forage continuously and getting a bit lard is probably quite far down the priority list tbh. Can you up the exercise? People are going to say 'You've clearly never had a good dooer' - apart from a couple TBs, that's literally all I've ever had, and I've never had to restrict hay if exercised enough/they haven't been on cow grazing.
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I do get where you’re coming from, but unfortunately Saus has had laminitis in a previous home, and I’d like to avoid that again. And Erin had mobility issues and (worsened) asthma as a direct result of her being overweight at the start of summer. Since she’s lost weight she has been less spooky, she’s started playing in the field, and she just looks happier. This method has worked for the past 6 months and not caused any issues.

I don’t like having to use these nets much at all, but unfortunately, that’s the nature of the beast, it’s lami and fat, uncomfortable ponies, or teeth wear n tear and mild annoyance.

Saus can’t be exercised to the extent needed to improve the situation due to arthritis, and I don’t have the facilities to ride safely in the dark in winter.

My grazing isn’t cow grazing, and when the girls can go out it provides huge amounts of movement and low energy in winter. However, it’s clay, so unless it’s frozen, 24/7 turnout would tear it to pieces in no time.
 
I found tricklenet’s forage calculator good to get a rough idea of how much they should be eating as a minimum https://tricklenet.com/forage-calcu...-Ytb91mynMrcAaRHv684313if8fhDd9kaAmN8EALw_wcB

I also found splitting the hay ration into at least 2 nets hung in different places to be useful (you can always soak in 1 net & divide up) as encouraged to move between the different nets rather than stand at one.

Hay balls can be useful for putting about a kilo in as again it’s encouraging them not to just stand there (depends on how adept yours is at emptying it though as mine could manage to empty in an hour)

Nibbleze doubleeze nets slowed mine down more than a trickle net. Or yes you can try double netting the trickle nets themselves. (Ooops just seen you’re already double netting)

I also used to hang one net from the rafters so it was swinging and couldn’t be pinned against anything.

You could also offer straw (I think oat or barley is best) either mixed in or in a separate net (be cautious if colic prone) or a large trug of plain straw chaff.
 
I have one similar and I'm afraid I have to feed him 4 x a day to ward off ulcers. He was on 12kg (vets orders) to get slim.

He'd have nets at 6am, midday, 4pm and 10pm. I used to use the trickle nets and they would last around an hour. He used to also have straw but that stopped after an impaction.

Since we've had the wall mounted slow feeder, the hay lasts 2 hours. He is on around 16-18kg now.

I believe that some time without forage is best overnight when they do slow down.

I too never had a horse who needed restricting until I had one who was metabolically challenged and had previous to my ownership, had lami. It certainly focuses the mind!!!
 
Feed a net of straw along with the hay. Will give them something to occupy themselves with even if it's only pulling it out and dropping it. You could also mix the hay and straw well in the nets so they have to seek out the hay. Should last longer that way.
 
How big is your pony?

My 14hh native (with reversed EMS) has between 6-8kg of soaked hay a night in Tricklenets and then has a a big holed straw net too.

I buy my straw from a retailer and only need a few bales at a time, as it lasts a fairly long time, so might be an option as not much to store? I appreciate it's a bad year for straw but it's still available around us at the moment.
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IrishMilo said:
And sticking my head above the parapet I do feel that double netting and trickle netting is cruel and a precursor to musculoskeletal and dental issues. There are so many problems that come from horses not eating enough forage continuously and getting a bit lard is probably quite far down the priority list tbh. Can you up the exercise? People are going to say 'You've clearly never had a good dooer' - apart from a couple TBs, that's literally all I've ever had, and I've never had to restrict hay if exercised enough/they haven't been on cow grazing.
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Whilst exercise is a big part of his management - mine is pretty fit and worked 6 days a week - sadly, being metabolic he does still need restricted access to food. It doesn't mean going without for hours at a time but it does mean slowing him down to make his rations last and giving less instantly appealing options. And small holed nets to help restrict him. For sure, they can have an impact but you often to weigh up which is the lesser evil & tweak management (mine has regular body work every 8-12 weeks and use of massage mitts and pads in between to try lessens any effects) - being a bit lardy or overweight for a metabolic horse can have a huge impact on whole horse health as real and significant as ulcers can. It's a bit like telling a diabetic to just go for a run and they'll be grand! It's part of the equation for sure but not the whole answer.
 
Mine just gets one net at night and she gets a bucket of honeychop oat straw. She only ever touches it if she needs it.
She will get another smaller net once the majority of the grass is gone from the field or if they are in for longer because the weather is bad. They usually come in at 8ish and out at 6.
 
Split the hay into multiple, double netted nets, put in different places, and mix straw in. Sorry, but they can't be standing for hours with nothing, they will get ulcers. If you can, straw can be kept outside: lay a big, big tarp on the ground, put pallets down over it, put the straw on the pallets then lift the bottom tarp up so it's tight across the bales, tie it to the pallets on the opposite side by the eyelets, then put another big tarp over the top and also tie it with twine to the pallets. It's a faff and a half to get straw out, but keeps it dry enough, sometimes you have to chuck manky outer bits but rarely. Also helps if you're good with knots. (I'm not, I get mum to do it, her knots could hold Buckingham Palace to a flying helicopter).

Diva gets 2kg hay split between two small hole nets, for 8-10 hours overnight, + straw + big feed of speedibeet+dengie meadow light. 15hh 417kgish last weigh taping... And mine are also lobbed out in the day on 4.7acres at the moment so sounds like a similar setup. Our hay/straw storage is a 12*14 stable.

You can also just throw in one of the xxl gorilla tubs with a 'nothingy' chaff in (to chop zero, honey chop oat straw) dampened down. It's about as palatable as cardboard though but if they are really hungry most will eat it. You can mix fenugreek through it to make it a bit tastier, or ground sweet cinnamon (with the bonus that this is useful for metabolic management as it improves insulin sensitivity).
 
I know they can’t be stood for hours with nothing, which is why I asked, my original method was working well and not causing issues until the past week or so.

I think I also need to disengage from “about to die of lami dieting”. After last winter, and when we got Erin, it was very much a case of as slim as possible as fast as possible.

This has reminded me that, although they have gained a bit due to going into winter, they’re not as bad as they were.

So, I think I need to adjust as such, and go up to 5kg overnight, and maintain the current daytime routine. I think I will also have a look at the chopped straw/topchop because that could probably be stored with the other feed bags. Erin likes to keep swapping nets, so she keeps them both moving around in a friendly manner, which is helpful!

Hay pillows might also be an option, I guess that’s what I’m getting for Christmas! 😂

At the next vet visit I’ll also be asking about prascend for Saus, because she is probably suffering from PPID, and I think it’s getting to the point where she does need medicating for it because she’s becoming more difficult to manage than Erin.
 
ester said:
are they shod? If not hay pillows (I've used nibbleze) are a better alternative option than hanging nets - as they aren't constantly pulling on them and causing issues from that and they often slow them down more as they have to work a little harder lips wise.
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Hay pillows and or hay balls. They are just haynets chucked on the floor with the draw string cut. Soaking for half an hour will leach sugar out, but bring flasks from home to help speed it up. And mix hay and straw together. if thats completely impossible then feed chopped straw. Ideally honey chop as top spec straw is unfortunately palatable to some horses
 
I did make my own but the nibbleze ones were so much better 🤣, I actually never needed the 20mm hole version, that got donated to the section A on the yard who would demolish a double net in a couple of hours.
 
IrishMilo said:
I wouldn't expect one net to last anything overnight. I'm sorry to sound blunt but I don't understand why people are continuously shocked by the fact that ginormous animals who are literally designed to eat 23 hours a day eat a lot of forage.

And sticking my head above the parapet I do feel that double netting and trickle netting is cruel and a precursor to musculoskeletal and dental issues. There are so many problems that come from horses not eating enough forage continuously and getting a bit lard is probably quite far down the priority list tbh. Can you up the exercise? People are going to say 'You've clearly never had a good dooer' - apart from a couple TBs, that's literally all I've ever had, and I've never had to restrict hay if exercised enough/they haven't been on cow grazing.
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Agree re the nets.

I was horrified when a friend told me how little hay she gave her porky Lusitanos and she was horrified by how much I give mine (loads and in a home made hay bar). Mine are also on straw so if they were to run out they've got something to pick at if they want, her's are on shavings.
 
I have never had anything but a good doer - and several of them. The worst thing you can do is allow them to get hungry. If you allow them to get hungry that only causes more problems and risks them developing ulcers.

I have used plain oat straw chaff to very good effect to give a horse on restricted hay something to eat when the hay is finished. I have only ever soaked hay for a horse with a dust allergy, never for weight management.

Haynets of any kind are not good to feed horses from and small-holed nets are worse than normal ones. They all are likely to cause muscle damage in the neck and poll.
 
My big warmblood eats a huge amount & hoovers if given the chance, he's always got ad lib (as in definitely more than I know he could eat!) but its netted in the shires knotless smallest hole nets, tied down floor level in a hay bunker. He has the knack for teasing hay out effortlessly at a rate of knots, so for him its just to slow him, not restrict if that makes sense.
 
ester said:
are they shod? If not hay pillows (I've used nibbleze) are a better alternative option than hanging nets - as they aren't constantly pulling on them and causing issues from that and they often slow them down more as they have to work a little harder lips wise.
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this.

small hole nets or pillows on floor with a mix of hay and straw in will take ages for them to pull the best bits out then start work on the rest.................but i do just think they need much more in general whether its soaked or straw mix.

my 380KG pony is eating 1.25 big bale slice between 4pm and 6am (always a good armful left so truly ad lib) thats gotta be what...12kg at least?! maybe 15 even? history of ulcers so cannot be without forage and is only in light work, for him being slightly fat is the lesser of all evils.
 
Straw bed if that would then give you storage for both hay and straw? Then finish haynet, pick at bed.

Hang the haynet in the middle of the stable from a beam so it swings when they try to eat.

Hay balls.

Bucket of boring chaff.
 
I'm with you @HaplessHorse. You can't win for losing sometimes. People will tell you it's too much, too little, wrong net, too few nets, use straw, don't use straw, wrong rug, wrong exercise, wrong everything. Weight, joints, lami, ulcers, neck, poll, teeth.

I'm not saying that any advice given is wrong, it isn't, but nobody has access to the Algorithm for Perfect Horsekeeping as far as I know so can we let people be imperfect in imperfect situations please!

I've gone the math route. Basically the tricklenet calculator @Boulty posted but I just do it on my phone depending on how wet the haylage feels. (No I don't have the option to feed hay, I'm in an imperfect situation!) Total forage/ 24 * the no of hours I want it to last. It's not perfect math, I don't know her exact weight, or the MJ/kg of the haylage, I don't have an inbuilt moisture meter, but it keeps things in vaguely the right ballpark.

Bucket of chaff was a new addition and was working to keep my mind at ease before she got a respiratory problem (I suspect from eating chopped straw bedding) and I've taken her out of the stable completely. I'm very lucky to be able to do that. Two nets in the hardstanding overnight, sometimes three. There are scraps on the ground if she's desperate. If she eats it all in 4 hours I can't help it. The situation just is what it is and you do the best with what you've got.
 
ester said:
fwiw dentist always said he could tell the haynet to door orientation from the effect on teeth too.
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I think my biggest pet peeve is when people put nets so high up that the horse has to stretch its neck all night. It’s the kind of thing where I think “How has it not crossed your mind how uncomfortable that must be?!”.
 
Large trug of straw chaff if storage is big issue, or as suggested, bed on barley straw so they have something to nibble at after the hay. You could also feed more of oat straw, so worth investigating that as the main forage source.
 
If you must
IrishMilo said:
I think my biggest pet peeve is when people put nets so high up that the horse has to stretch its neck all night. It’s the kind of thing where I think “How has it not crossed your mind how uncomfortable that must be?!”.
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This is just sad when people do this.

It is really hard though, though I think mine take being metabolic to a ridiculous degree.
I would say that the main cause (per RCVS) of laminitis is underlying metabolic to disease so in OPs shoes would be TRH stim testing and basal insulin at a minimum/glucose challenge if finances allow, and modifying management depending on the results.
Mostly just saying this cos my suggestions are based on not 'just a good doer' horses but those with underlying health issues so might not actually apply 🤣🤣

It pays to remember friends, forage, freedom always ime

ETA not a criticism of anyone, more an acknowledgement that when you have to balance the needs of different individual animals, the land, money, etc it is a bloody tough balancing act.
 
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