Just What Does Constitute 'Cruelty'?

[JAK]

Following on from a few recent posts, inc. one of my own, just what, in your fine opinions, does constitute 'cruelty'?

Obviously, cases of extreme & blatant cruelty, neglect or abuse are easy to identify & agree upon as being cruelty but what about all those half forgotten horses/ponies that live in that strange shadowy half-world of an existence - how much does something need to actually 'suffer' before it is considered cruelty?

For example, those that never have quite enough to eat to keep them comfortably warm over winter, that are rugged up in ill-fitting, sweat encrusted rugs, with the waterproofing long since gone, which are then soaked through every time it rains - is that cruelty?

We have an elderly mare at our place - her owner is a lovely person & apparently adores her horse, whom she has owned for donkey's years!
However, this ancient mare is stick thin, even in summer, constantly has 'the runs' & when the dentist last came, her owner declined to have her horse done on the grounds that 'she has managed fine for the last 20 years....!', despite the fact she can barely crunch up a carrot in less than 10 mins. now - is this cruelty?

Chasing after something with a lunge whip, yanking viciously (& constantly!) at its mouth, shouting & screaming at it until it retaliates in temper - is this cruelty?
Not bothering to come up & fly spray ponies, even though they have sweet itch & are tearing themselves apart until a sympathetic fellow livery steps in to do something - is this cruelty?

Or what about simply never bothering to take note of, or act upon, a sad or sullen animal, when a few simple changes could perhaps make all the difference to their attitude & behaviour & a 'happier life' is sometimes perfectly reachable, if only their owners could summon enough interest & motivation to say 'Is there anything I can do to make this better?'

Ah well, philosophical whinge over! Replies, thoughts, views welcome, if indeed you managed to get this far! LOL

 

[SillyNoodles]

Most of what you say can be labelled as cruelty. Is't there something about ignorance being no deffence in the eyes of the law........... IMO that should be linked to cruelty to animals and humans alike!!

However, there are some people who consider riding to be a form of cruelty and EDT's to be invasive and cruel and farriery to be an abomination and wormers chemical evil..............................

 

[ruscara]

I think I must be particularly susceptible at the moment, as your post has me in tears - as have several others over the past few days.
I think that every one of your examples constitutes 'cruelty'. Any form of suffering that an animal has, if it is within the power of the 'owner' to relieve it or prevent it, is cruelty. Obviously, there are occasions when an animal will suffer even though it is getting the best of care, but that is not the same. Whether it is ignorance, willful neglect or deliberate cruelty, the result for the poor animal is the same.

 

[Onyxia]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that every one of your examples constitutes 'cruelty'. Any form of suffering that an animal has, if it is within the power of the 'owner' to relieve it or prevent it, is cruelty.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thankyou, I have been trying to find the words and failing - that sums up how I feel about this one perfectly.

 

[JAK]

Maybe because I go out of my way to make our own ponies' lives as happy & comfortable as possible, it upsets me that others view their own animals' comfort, happiness & general well-being on a far more casual basis & consider the fact that they are 'upright & breathing' to be sufficient!

Doing your utmost to ensure a horse or pony has the opportunity of a comfortable, pain-free, 'safe' & yes, pleasureable existence would (or should!) surely apply however, whatever your individual views on ideal methods of horse-keeping?

Cruelty is seeing something suffering, even to a small degree, in conditions, whether that be attitude of owner, environment, general health, or whatever that could be improved upon, or changed, or at least, investigated!

 

[SillyNoodles]

I agree completely with you JAK!! It was beyond me at the last yard I had my horses at, how this woman could have the views that she had on horse keeping. It was also disturbing that the YO turned a blind eye. There was never quite enough wrong though, to warrent taking steps.

I better hadn't say anymore.................... Peeping eyes and all that..........

 

[lilym]

cruelty has many guises from delibarate, physical abuse, and willful neglect, to just plain ignorance as well as laziness and "i'll do it tomorrow" attitude. all of what you are describing is cruelty to a certain extent, and what we must not do is turn a blind eye and let it be swept under the carpet, often in the case of inexperience a gentle nudge or hints in the right direction can work wonders, for more blatent cruelty, we must report it.

 

[JAK]

Sorry m_m! xxx

Yes, sometimes a horse or pony may be in pain, despite your best efforts - a tiny example I know but LBO suffers with his knee - we give him Cortaflex, keep him moving, give him as much turnout as possible, keep him dry & warm etc. but we can't alleviate all his discomfort, all of the time!
His attitude tells me he is happy & content however & I do not believe we are 'cruel' in allowing him to 'keep going' even though he is in some pain sometimes - his quality of life is generally excellent, as is that of many elderly or rather poorly ponies just like him!

A sad, neglected animal standing dejectedly in the rain, under a rug that might as well not be there, or fighting a losing battle against the flies that torment it constantly, that is dragged out of the field once in a blue moon & thrashed round to beyond its fitness capabilities by a heavy-handed rider, may well not have LBO's painful dodgy knee but who has the better life at the end of the day?

LBO did not choose to come & live with me, I chose him & it is surely therefore my responsibility to give him as decent a life as possible, to the best of my common sense, knowledge & sympathy & irrespective of my 'budget'!

 

[JAK]

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There was never quite enough wrong though, to warrent taking steps.

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And those ones are sometimes some of the saddest cases of all, where it would take so little to improve upon their lifestyle, eh?

 

[mandy4727]

Yes I think you are right and these are on the verge of cruelty. But i have a pony like one of those you mentioned in your post. My gelding is 39. Stick thin. And nearly always has the runs. But I wouldn't class myself as cruel. His teeth are done regularly. He is wormed regularly. I have had about 3 vets out to see why he has the runs all the time and was just told. Becuase of his age the elasticity in his intestines has started to go, along with worm damage over the years (after 39 years he will have some even though he has been wormed regularly whilst in my care for 26 years) and long term bute use. I have tried every product imaginable to try to stop the runs, spoke to nearly all the feed companies and tried their feeds to a) stop the runs and b) to put weight on him. But nothing works. He is happy in himself, will trot to the field, even bit me really hard tonight little sod. Escapes when you are not looking. Neighs everytime he sees me and bangs on his door for his tea. He had a great appetite. So I don't think I am being cruel at all. But if you drove past his field and saw him you would think he was neglected and never fed. So sometimes it isn' a matter of being cruel. Hope you understand what I mean!!!

 

[S_N]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There was never quite enough wrong though, to warrent taking steps.

[/ QUOTE ]
And those ones are sometimes some of the saddest cases of all, where it would take so little to improve upon their lifestyle, eh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now if ever there was a couple of true statements.............

 

[JAK]

Ooh, hope I didn't offend you there - did try & make myself clear on this, as in comment above at 22.45pm!

The mare in question cannot eat properly & I imagine her teeth are to blame!
Dear old Tartan may well be rather thin & scrawny looking but he always sounds a happy & content old so-&-so!

 

[mandy4727]

No JAK. Don't worry you didn't offend me!!! And sometimes when I look at Tartan I wonder if I am keeping him going for my own selfishness. But then he goes and bites me like he did tonight cos I wasn' quick enough bringing his tea and I think there is life in the old dog yet. I am sure he will let me know when his times has come to go to the big stable in the sky. But for now he has some qualify of life and seems to be enjoying it. But cos he is so thin I won't post any recent pictures of him cos would hate people to think I am being cruel.

 

[JAK]

We'll all be old & thin & smelly one day! LOL

Littlest disabled daughter used to help care for a tiny white pony, who was incredibly thin, had Cushing's, hardly any teeth (ate mush!) & could barely trot but he was a happy little guy nonetheless, whinnied when he saw her or his owner coming & loved the attention of the little kids who brushed him, changed his rugs & cuddled him!
(And yes, he could still nip with the few teeth he had left!)

The mare I am on about however, gave up the will to live long ago - her eyes are empty pools of 'nothing' & she is basically a 'dead horse walking' - a very different scenario I reckon!

 

[mandy4727]

What do you mean One Day. I am old and smelly now. Well I will be this time next week. Big 40 coming up. Down hill from there. But they say life begins at 40. So here's hoping!!!!

 

[JAK]

Eek! My 40th birthday has long since come & gone!

Being in your 40s is not so bad - people respect your opinion more when you start going a bit grey etc.!

 

[JM7]

besides the obvious willful neglect, ignorence and down-right cant be bothered.....

these are my top 5.....

over rugging..in ALL weathers!....
over feeding
over the top use of supplements
over bitting
over "gadgetry"

 

[miamibear]

My answer is all of the above im afraid and i think there is too much of this going on in the horsey world at the moment.

Take my new horse for example, when he came to me he had no personality he was just a shell, he was frightened of someone raising their hand to pat him, he thought everything had an ulterior motive a sinister one.

2 months on and he had a personality, and is a nice person to be around, and he has trust

All it takes is a bit of time and thought and careful management.

I dont think this would ever be percieved as cruelty though by the authorities, shame!

 

[G1day]

In the case of the elderly mare.. I wouldn't say actual cruelty, but perhaps some kind of neglect? i t sounds as though she needs her teeth done if she can't manage a carrot. Perhaps you could have a word with the owner and ask her if she sees a dentist regularly, and point out that it's the same for a horse.


Mandy4727 can i ask what you feed your gelding on? I too have an elderly horse who scoured very badly at times. Turns out that he has become intolerant to anything that contains sugar.... Alpha A, sugar beet, molasses, he has now been off all things that contain sugar, and is doing brilliant, last winter he stopped eating hay, as his teeth can no longer cope with it, he was put onto Dengie Hi-Fi senior, and even put weight on during the winter... he also has supplements..Cod liver oil (for joints) and No Bute for arthritic pain.... you really would not belive this horse is 29!!! good luck with your elderly horse.

 

[Fransurrey]

I think the quote above did sum it up quite well -where it is in the power of the owner to do something and they don't!! They way I keep my ponies might be cruel for a weedy horse - they live out without rugs (open access to a stable), but if I was to rug either of them, they would look like a prune in 24hrs, sweating all their body fluids out!!

Cruelty is also the inappropriate use of punishment (not in proportion to the 'crime'), under/over-feeding... I totally agree with JM7 about the gadgetry and supplements!

It could go on and on, but I think the majority of horsey people know what cruelty is. Some just choose to ignore it, sadly...

 

[Snowberry]

since we've moved onto livery we've seen allsorts of things which (IMHO) count as cruelty - somethings that truly make your toes curl!!

We've been asked how we can allow our ponies to live out without 'coats' on, why we dont feed them 2 meals a day??

I've even heard people saying that I am cruel for still competing a 23yr old pony!!! (who is fitter than most of the ponies on the yard)
Most of the people on the yard are complete novices and really dont have a clue so I dont think they are intentionally being mean/cruel but it really does scare me how easy it is to buy an animal, even if you havent got the foggiest idea how to look after it!!!
One of the girls on the yard regularly plaits her pony (17hh horse) up and puts pink ribbons in its mane and tail and then turns it out!!

( i did try telling them but they are far more knowledgable than I am!!) This same girl also asked my advice on how much to feed her already grossly overweight, out of work cob. (wheres that bloody roll the eyes smilie??) She was feeding it twice a day with HUGE bucketfuls of feed!!!

 

[SillyMare]

To give another view:

Horses are horses - they are designed to tolerate a certain amount of variation in the weather, they are adapted to survive periods when grass is scarce, the ground is rubbish, the flies are annoying and things are harsh. Up to a point I think most of us worry far too much.

Equally they are not designed to have their lives artificially prolongued when their bodies are failing, their teeth are falling out and their limbs are seizing up. In the wild they would not survive. So many horses are kept going way beyond the time when their quality of life drops, simply to spare the owner from taking a difficult descision until things are so desperate there is no alternative.

Also there are dozens of feed companies / wormer companies / supplement companies / alternative shoeing companies etc. etc. doing their best to convince us that unless we are giving our horses the full range of their latest products we are automatically 'bad owners'. Take a stroll around 'world of the horse' at Badminton - it is simple application of marketing principles (creating a perceived need). If these companies say it to us often enough we will believe it and buy their products.

We look at the others around us who don't buy into things and (perhaps sub-consciously) validate our own decision by believing that we are somehow better owners than they are and our horses are happier. That is obviously not to say none of these new products offer an advance - just that not all of them are as essential as the company selling would have us believe.

Obviously this is an extreme view - just playing devils advocate - but I do think we are sometimes quick to judge on here.

 

[Sooty]

As soon as you take any animal out of its natural habitat, and modify its lifestyle to suit your own, you become totally responsible for that animal's welfare. Of course wild horses have to cope with extremes, but they are not enclosed or unable to get away from a difficult situation. In the wild horses tend to be constantly moving and grazing, therefore their teeth and feet look after themselves much better. They are not clipped so do not need rugging. Once you domesticate any animal you are intertering with its natural abilities to care for itself. Centuries of breeding have produced an animal that is far more dependent on us for care, and not caring for a horse properly does, IMHO, constitute cruelty. If you take on a horse you take on responsibility for its comfort and wellbeing, both physical and psychological. We have come on in leaps and bounds in the last few decades in our knowledge of what makes horses 'tick', and no decent horse owner should ignore the knowledge available.

 

[horsegirl]

[ QUOTE ]

to look after it!!!
One of the girls on the yard regularly plaits her pony (17hh horse) up and puts pink ribbons in its mane and tail and then turns it out!!

[/ QUOTE ]

What's wrong with that?

 

[JAK]

Some very interesting points & views from people but I agree completely with Sooty here - our horses are, in many cases, totally dependent on us to provide a level of care that enables them to survive & thrive in what is after all, a somewhat limited & artificial environment!
They are effectively 'trapped' in this environment & lifestyle, unable to make their own choices, so I therefore believe that it is up to us as owners to provide them with as pleasureable & comfortable an existence as possible!

Denying them this, IMO, could then constitute something approaching cruelty & certainly, any action or behaviour by the owner that unnessarily creates pain, fear or stress to the horse, is cruelty & not doing anything to alleviate the problem is definitely cruelty I think!

 

[Snowberry]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:

to look after it!!!
One of the girls on the yard regularly plaits her pony (17hh horse) up and puts pink ribbons in its mane and tail and then turns it out!!



What's wrong with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are joking??? You'd plait up a horses mane/tail and thread pink ribbons through it and then turn it out in a field????

 

[Lobelia_Overhill]

I haven't read every post on thread, I used to work in an animal shelter...
Neglect is one thing, cruelty is another.
Neglect is not looking after the animals needs properly feed, veterinary care etc. Some people neglect their animals due to a lack of knowledge ~ "oh I didn't realise I had to worm them more than once!" ~ or because they haven't been able to take care of the animal properly due to ill health or an accident ~ cite the owner of the shelter breaking her ankle

~ or in some cases (several dogs) due to the unnoticed death of the [elderly] owner.
Cruelty is deliberately causing an animal to suffer neglect ~ cite teenage girl finding discos more interesting than mucking out/feeding/grooming pony, the fact that she "couldn't be bothered" to look after her pony any more is a case of cruelty (although she didn't think it was). Alternate arrangements [livery or selling] weren't considered.
The "grey area" in between is the hard part to prove in a court of law ~ cite a mare laying in a field for 3 days because she'd broken her neck (tethered), the owner didn't realise she'd broken her neck and passers by just thought the horse was asleep. It took someone with some cop-on to notice that the mare couldn't move before we were called in and the mare was PTS. The owner hadn't tethered the mare with the intent of breaking her neck - he had to tether her because he'd only rented part of the field [or somesuch] and she'd been spooked by stray dogs [more than likely]. Do we prosecute the field owner for making the mare's owner tether her, or the owners of the dogs who left them run around, or the mare's owner for not taking the time to inspect the mare when he realised she'd not moved in 3 days [lack of knowledge]?

Until such time as people are required by law to have an annually renewable licence to own/keep animals case like those I've cited will continue to happen. Neglect can be reduced by educating the owners of animals as to how to take care of the animal - full page ads in the media, commercials on TV, flyers in the post...?

 

[horsegirl]

No I probably wouldn't, I don't like pink. You still have not explained what is wrong with this, how is this cruelty?

Is it the plaiting you object to, the ribbons or that they are pink?

 

[G1day]

Re plaiting up and turning out... it's not a cruelty issue... yes, it may look a bit odd... a girl at our yard also puts little plaits in her M&M ponies, with colourful bands.. they don't seem to mind, and they are well cared for and loved.

So, what is wrong with this?

this sis the tip of the ice-berg...have you seen the things that some people buy for thier dogs? some have full wardrobes.... t-shirts, jumpers, dresses.... now that's cruel, in a bizzare kinda way!!

 

[siennamum]

This is a really interesting thread. You and I think alike Jak. I am very concerned that my animals are happy. People don't seem to care, which baffles me, aside from anything else, if a horse is happy it will perform much better.
People seem unable to tell if their horse is genuinely happy or just going through the motions, they cannot understand why their management is at fault, so my definitions of cruelty would include (fluffy) things like:
- Not being concerned with horses mental wellbeing.
- Not getting off their backs at shows
- children using whips incorrectly (there was a child at camp this weekend, who carried a schooling whip which she repeatedly used on the pony's shoulder!! )
- endless schoolwork, little hacking.
- No turnout (though I can see where this isn't cruel per se, police horses etc. but I think it must be horrible for the horses)

These are probably more my pet hates than cruelty, but I do get irate when criticised for things like leaving my horses out and not feeding hard food, by the sorts of people who do all of the above.