Karl v Heuschmann. Ego before Horse welfare?

[TrasaM]

I attended the Gerd Heuschmann lecture in Oxford yesterday. I didn't know much about GH prior to this but I'd had a really interesting demo by a lady who has trained with him and followed his methods and it was obviously very effective because we could see how the horse changed during the training session.

Yesterday however I came away from the lecture feeling very frustrated. GM took the time to explain the source of the conflict between himself and PK. As I listened I could not help thinking about Gullivers Travels. As far as GH is concerned PK eats his eggs from the wrong end! When their various methods are boiled down there is very little difference. GM claims that PK's way causes problems with the horses back. Yet when I was being coached by the PK trainer the focus was very much on respect for the horse and working in harmony with it.

Given the controversy regarding Rolkur, hyper flexion and LDL these two trainers who are both well respected have, instead of joining forces for the sake of the horse, chosen to criticise each others methods and reasoning. So whilst those who care struggle to get changes within the FEI they fight amongst themselves. The only real loser in this conflict is the horse.
The irony of this whole lecture was Herr Heuschmann criticising others for their ego and arrogance yet not seeming to recognise that he himself was doing exactly the same. Criticising others can backfire and in my eyes he lost credibility yesterday for his very overt dismissal of PK and others. His books were on sale as was his own branded cavasson which I believe was very pricey.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't do "gurus " whoever they are.

 

[TrasaM]

I don't do "gurus " whoever they are.

I don't think they'd think of themselves as gurus though. Yesterday someone asked GM why His methods were not being taught to more trainers and he vehemently denied that it was HIS method. Both he and PK would claim,I think, to take their teaching from the great masters of classical riding.

 

[Wheels]

Well I think it is very unprofessional when trainers criticise other trainers methods (unless it is welfare related such as rollkur) I prefer if the trainer can explain why they do things the way they do and what the benefits are so 'i do it my way because of a b and c' rather than saying 'don't do it his way as its wrong'

I did start to read one book by PK but it was extremely negative towards other methods so I didn't carry on.

I too don't go for guru's as I don't believe that only one method is the only method so while I like to know and learn from different people I think it's best to keep an open mind

 

[TrasaM]

Wheels, I agree. Criticising other trainers methods is not a positive way to get your own message across.

 

[ihatework]

Your analysis of GH is pretty much similar to mine .... An arrogant arse. I think he has good things to say regarding the veterinary aspect to biomechanics, but sometimes the integrity of the message is lost by the way he cannot seem to have an impartial/open discussion. And as for his riding .....
Were his merry band of GH cult followers there practically chucking their knicjlkers at him too??!

 

[TrasaM]

Your analysis of GH is pretty much similar to mine .... An arrogant arse. I think he has good things to say regarding the veterinary aspect to biomechanics, but sometimes the integrity of the message is lost by the way he cannot seem to have an impartial/open discussion. And as for his riding .....
Were his merry band of GH cult followers there practically chucking their knicjlkers at him too??!

Whew, glad I'm not alone in this. I only went to the afternoon lecture and didn't see him ride. Yes, I think he had a few loyal followers there.

 

[tallyho!]

It's just men for you isn't it... Lol!

I've listened to so many talks its almost like these trainers are reinventing the wheel. Fundamentally, it all does the same thing. Just choose bits you like for your own wheel. If it rolls without breaking, brilliant!

There are exceptions... I have to say, some are very un-wheel like! Some people put the spokes on before the hub!

 

[tankgirl1]

Who's PK? Sorry for being dumb

 

[cptrayes]

Who's PK? Sorry for being dumb

Try 'Twisted truths of modern dressage' and you'll get the idea. I love the book, it really resonates with me.

 

[DabDab]

Dressage seems to be particularly prone to this kind of thing, and has been for generations. My own take is that different methods work for different riders/trainers. When I do things with horses that work that is, at least in part, due to who I am. And equally I can admire someone enormously as a rider or trainer, while knowing that if I tried to replicate what they were doing it wouldn't really work for me.

In general I think it would be better if the very progressive and interesting work on biomechanics was kept a little more separate from individuals' training systems. 'getting a horse to work in this way is better for it physically' should not become 'this is the correct way to train a horse to go like this, which is better for it physically'. Otherwise, like you say op, the message runs the risk of getting lost.

 

[TrasaM]

Who's PK? Sorry for being dumb

My fault Tankgirl. I edited out a part of the post where I'd made reference to Philippe Karl.

 

[TheMule]

IHW, I need a like button!
He is an arrogant arse, a womaniser and not the great horseman he proclaims himself to be.
PK all the way for me- I know the guy and he is thoroughly decent!

 

[Caol Ila]

I wonder if Tallyho isn't right. I just read a report from someone on another horsey forum who recently attended a Buck Brannaman clinic and she seemed to think that he spent quite a lot of time slagging off other trainers.

Can these folks not just say, "This is the way I do things and this is why it works for me" rather than turn it into a willy-size contest?

 

[TrasaM]

Its good to hear that PK is a good egg lol. I'm a big fan of his approach but I've not met him. However I think I'll sign up as a spectator when he does his next training session. Just for the sake of balance so to speak

 

[Jesstickle]

Where was your demo OP? Was it with my instructor? She's a she so not Gerd!

 

[TrasaM]

It's just men for you isn't it... Lol!

I've listened to so many talks its almost like these trainers are reinventing the wheel. Fundamentally, it all does the same thing. Just choose bits you like for your own wheel. If it rolls without breaking, brilliant!

There are exceptions... I have to say, some are very un-wheel like! Some people put the spokes on before the hub!

So agree it's what I'm doing. I keep an open mind and if it works I'lll use it.

 

[TrasaM]

Where was your demo OP? Was it with my instructor? She's a she so not Gerd!

In Churchill. Do you mean Sarah? We didn't go to the demo, just the lecture.
Oops sorry do you mean the demo I made reference to. That was in Northampton at a friends place. And yes a Sarah Williamson who seemed like a really lovely person

 

[Jesstickle]

Yep. Sarah

 

[atlantis]

Can these folks not just say, "This is the way I do things and this is why it works for me" rather than turn it into a willy-size contest?

Aren't they men? If so then no, they can't!!! Women can do that (sometimes) men not so much!!!

 

[atlantis]

Its good to hear that PK is a good egg lol. I'm a big fan of his approach but I've not met him. However I think I'll sign up as a spectator when he does his next training session. Just for the sake of balance so to speak

If you want some company I'd be up for that!!!

 

[DabDab]

Very unfair on men I think - women can be just as bad for this kind of thing

 

[atlantis]

Very unfair on men I think - women can be just as bad for this kind of thing

Very true dabdab I've just thought of many women who do just that!!! Was meant very tongue in cheek!!! Men after all are entire are they not!!! Life is one big competition!!! I have 5 brothers (some step some half but still 5!!) and it can get messy!!

 

[Booboos]

If you enjoy rants you'll love this:

http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=25&location_id=354&topicid=3

The two used to be best buds in the fight against the powers that be that refused to recognise their collective genius but somewhere along the way they couldn't quite decide who had the greatest claim to the throne of the classical masters and have fallen out big time.

 

[Caol Ila]

If you enjoy rants you'll love this:

http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=25&location_id=354&topicid=3

The two used to be best buds in the fight against the powers that be that refused to recognise their collective genius but somewhere along the way they couldn't quite decide who had the greatest claim to the throne of the classical masters and have fallen out big time.

That was a good read. Kept me busy for a wee while.

For the sake of equal opportunity gender characterizations, I will say that they are actually like 7th grade girls.

 

[Orangehorse]

Well, I haven't read all of that, but I get the picture! I haven't met any Heuschmann students or been to any lectures from him.

I have had an introduction to the PK methods, and my horse has never gone better, it was humbling and frustrating to think of the years and years I have been going round and round getting no-where much. It is different, but the aim is the end result of a horse working correctly and lightly. I only wish there was a PK local instructor. Should I ever have a young horse again I would definitely seek out such an instructor and school my horse using that system.

 

[TrasaM]

If you enjoy rants you'll love this:

http://www.philippe-karl.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=25&location_id=354&topicid=3

The two used to be best buds in the fight against the powers that be that refused to recognise their collective genius but somewhere along the way they couldn't quite decide who had the greatest claim to the throne of the classical masters and have fallen out big time.

Wow! Great piece of writing so that was the letter which GH referred to yesterday. He claimed that PK called him lots of bad names lol.

 

[Caol Ila]

Wow! Great piece of writing so that was the letter which GH referred to yesterday. He claimed that PK called him lots of bad names lol.

LOL. Nice to see that even the old guys remain, at least in their hearts and minds, in junior high.

 

[TrasaM]

Orangehorse. Fully agree. I had lessons with Derek Clark and what an eye opener. He would definitely be my first choice to train me and whatever horse I buy.

 

[TrasaM]

If you want some company I'd be up for that!!!

Hiya
There are clinics coming up in October and November with Derek but PK won't be there until next may. Link to website so you can see what's happening.
http://www.holisticequitation.co.uk/index.php/clinics-a-workshops/calendar