Keeping a colt entire?

[Jericho]

Is there absolutely any advantages? Recently went to Ireland looking for a performance young Connie for my daughter and found a lovely gelding so all good but also fell in love for a cracking 2 1/2 year Class 1 Connie dun colt with some lovely breeding with the view that I would in hand show for a next year or so and then my daughter to produce and event and then sell on. I 100% never really considered keeping him entire but someone mentioned to me recently that in our region (Eastern) he would be quite sought after as a stallion for breeding. He honestly has the most amazing laid back temperament, friendly, polite etc and it has got me thinking. We keep our horses at home, all gelding and he is turned out with the other young gelding so no issues with mares etc, we are experienced with youngsters and competing etc. But what are the pros and cons of keeping him entire? Not necessarily to use him as a stud but I guess it could be a possibility. At 2 1/2 how much of the stallion behaviours would have presented already or can I (which I am presuming!) expect to turn into a testosterone filled ball of fire shortly? (I really am not seriously considering keeping him entire but interested in pros and cons particularly if we are looking at a performance career for him)

 

[HashRouge]

If you have a batchelor herd already I'd imagine you have a pretty good set up for keeping him entire if you want to. My experience has been that stallions are as well behaved as any other horse so long as they are properly socialised and exercised. The ones I've known that have been badly behaved have had little to no turnout and insufficient exercise. I'm sure some more experienced posters will be able to give you some better advice though

 

[Leo Walker]

At 2.5yrs they are usually at their absolute worst. So with consistent handling there is no reason he will go crazy, especially as theres no mares about. Theres pros and cons for keeping him entire, but really the question is do you want to stand a stallion or send him on to someone who can? If not then geld him. It makes life easier and theres no need to create extra hassle for yourself if his testicles arent actually needed!

 

[Pinkvboots]

It totally depends on the horse as to how they change as they mature, I bought a 2 year old colt to keep entire and he stayed more or less the same until he was 4, he was never used as a stud horse but he was stabled near mares, stallions and geldings and he was fine, but obviously he was handled carefully no risk taken at all, I then had to be brutally honest about him he was not going to be good enough to keep entire, and he also would very occasionally when stressed bite himself so I had him gelded when he was 4.

If you buy him have it in mind to keep him entire and see how it goes, if his behaviour changes and it gets too much get him cut.

 

[honetpot]

If you can keep him with gelding you should be fine. I have even had mine next to mares and not had a problem but its just like us they all different. I would turn him out with a gelding companion and see how it goes. You can always have him gelded later.
If you look on the breed website certain blood lines are over used, so if he could be used as an out cross and he conforms to the breed standard he could be useful.

 

[Pinkvboots]

If you can keep him with gelding you should be fine. I have even had mine next to mares and not had a problem but its just like us they all different. I would turn him out with a gelding companion and see how it goes. You can always have him gelded later.
If you look on the breed website certain blood lines are over used, so if he could be used as an out cross and he conforms to the breed standard he could be useful.

Not all stallions will turn out with other horses, mine wouldn't not even with a quiet gelding so he was turned out alone which he was fine with, but some don't enjoy being turned out full stop have known a few that would stay out for about an hour then want in. Agree about the blood lines really worth looking into.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

What's his hoof wall separation status? Has he been tested?

Be honest, is he extra special and worth keeping for breeding? Having a single copy of the Cream gene is not enough.

Would he have a happier life as a gelding?

 

[gallopingby]

If you're not going to use him as a stallion there's little point in keeping him entire. Far too many stallions about these days because people think they will do better in whatever sphere as a stallion than a gelding. Many stallions are really easy to look after - I have one who is the best behaved on the yard - but not all and in terms of selling on can be more difficult, it also becomes more complicated to geld as they get older.

 

[honetpot]

I have a colt that’s 3. He has always lived in a group and stands 16.1, he is bossed by a 14.1 pony, he knows no different. There are lots of stallions that live with company. As long as the new owner does their research, it passes grading etc where is the harm in keeping ungelded for a while.
I would only keep something entire if it was a nice person, no matter how good it’s breeding was, same with mares, I prefer older mares that have been ridden and proved their suitability.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I have a colt that’s 3. He has always lived in a group and stands 16.1, he is bossed by a 14.1 pony, he knows no different. There are lots of stallions that live with company. As long as the new owner does their research, it passes grading etc where is the harm in keeping ungelded for a while.
I would only keep something entire if it was a nice person, no matter how good it’s breeding was, same with mares, I prefer older mares that have been ridden and proved their suitability.

My friends Arab stallion lived out with a gelding for years without any problems, I tried mine with a few different horses and he used to bite and then chase them, after he was cut he went out with a friend's gelding and was fine but could still be dominant, I still have him his 15 now and he still is very field dominant his fine in a stable, his never been easy in regards to turnout but I think it's just him, he absolutely loves people but does not like strange horses at all.

I wouldn't hesitate having one cut if it wasn't nice it's just not worth it.

 

[paddy555]

What's his hoof wall separation status? Has he been tested?

this

 

[Jericho]

this

He is a carrier but not affected. One of the reasons I was going to geld him anyway. However after doing some research there have been recommendations that it is important to NOT NOT use carriers AS long as the mare is tested N/N (responsible breeding etc) otherwise the gene pool is reduced. I totally am not fussed about breeding from him, or him being a top stallion etc particularly with carrier status. I would also need to look into his breeding much more - more interested in how him being entire would affect his performance in the future and his happiness /well being. I certainly wouldn’t have considered buying an older stallion but I am faced with an irreversible decision and want to make sure I make the right decision

 

[cundlegreen]

If you can keep him with gelding you should be fine. I have even had mine next to mares and not had a problem but its just like us they all different. I would turn him out with a gelding companion and see how it goes. You can always have him gelded later.
If you look on the breed website certain blood lines are over used, so if he could be used as an out cross and he conforms to the breed standard he could be useful.

You should also check for white line disease which is prevalent in certain bloodlines within the breed.

 

[Lammy]

He is a carrier but not affected. One of the reasons I was going to geld him anyway. However after doing some research there have been recommendations that it is important to NOT NOT use carriers AS long as the mare is tested N/N (responsible breeding etc) otherwise the gene pool is reduced. I totally am not fussed about breeding from him, or him being a top stallion etc particularly with carrier status. I would also need to look into his breeding much more - more interested in how him being entire would affect his performance in the future and his happiness /well being. I certainly wouldn’t have considered buying an older stallion but I am faced with an irreversible decision and want to make sure I make the right decision

I’m not clued up about breeding but it is said stallions can be lazier to ride and that they are more careful with themselves xc.
And as someone said above you may find selling is trickier as not many people can accommodate a stallion.

 

[paddy555]

He is a carrier but not affected. One of the reasons I was going to geld him anyway. However after doing some research there have been recommendations that it is important to NOT NOT use carriers AS long as the mare is tested N/N (responsible breeding etc) otherwise the gene pool is reduced. I totally am not fussed about breeding from him, or him being a top stallion etc particularly with carrier status. I would also need to look into his breeding much more - more interested in how him being entire would affect his performance in the future and his happiness /well being. I certainly wouldn’t have considered buying an older stallion but I am faced with an irreversible decision and want to make sure I make the right decision

that is great if you have checked this out. Some people are not aware of HWSS in Connies and I wouldn't like anyone to get a nasty surprise.
I have found stallions (kept by private owners not stud ones) fall into 2 groups. The easy ones who are a dope on a rope . ie the ones where gelding would have made no difference you just have a delightful horse anyway and the more difficult ones some who can be a bit of a PITA and may be better gelded. Only you know the temperament and will see how he copes as a stallion.
My arab stallion was certainly not lazier to ride but he was an alpha leader. He "made" other horses do it. My Peruvian was gelded at 11 just before he came to me (he had been a stud stallion) and the gelding made no difference whatsover. He was still the kindest, calmest horse on the ground ever. He was also a benevolent leader. He never had to bite or kick. One flick of the ear and everyone complied including the alpha arab stallion. I think it just depends on the individual horse and is just a case of seeing how it works out. At 2.5 my arab stallion was a stallion and everyone was going to know about it so I would think you would see fairly soon how he was going to be. He was turned out with other geldings and ridden with them. He was also ridden through herds of moorland ponies with their own stallions. He didn't do anything with the ferals but if a feral stallion challenged him he didn't put up with it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Does he have the rare bloodlines or exceptional conformation/athleticism/temperament that justify keeping him entire despite being a carrier? Connies are not a rare breed, so he really needs to stand out and offer something exceptional.

As per my earlier post - would he be happier as a gelding? This one is really worth taking into account when deciding whether to geld or not.

 

[Clodagh]

I would buy him and keep him entire as long as it suits. Stallions do develop better than geldings, generally stockier, they muscle up better and have a lot more about them. (Compare Iberians for example). I used to help out at a Connie stud when young and their stallion was a complete gentleman, a friend now showjumps a stallion (not a connie) and you would have no idea at all, unless he sees his covering bridle turn up.
He can be gelded at any time so go for it.

 

[Jericho]

Does he have the rare bloodlines or exceptional conformation/athleticism/temperament that justify keeping him entire despite being a carrier? Connies are not a rare breed, so he really needs to stand out and offer something exceptional.

As per my earlier post - would he be happier as a gelding? This one is really worth taking into account when deciding whether to geld or not.

Well time will tell if his conformation and athleticism are good (my plan is to show him in hand this summer and see what judges think) his temperament certainly is exceptional and at the moment he is more than happy with his full accompaniment of boy bits 🤣 and lives no differently to our other geldings. As for his bloodlines they go back to Thunderbolt, Carna Dun and Rebel Wind some of which I believe are ‘historic’ stallions and would be good to continue the line, with his sire being CrossKeys Rebel who has sired som nice performance horses including a cci*** eventer. However agree, this is still no reason to use him for breeding just because I can. I think I might see how he grows and shows this year and take it from them. Thanks for your advice.

 

[conniegirl]

I'd probably wait, at this point the risks associated with gelding will be no different to the risks of gelding at 4, 5 or 6.
If he is a lovely pony and you have the facilities to keep a stallion I'd give him a chance to prove himself. If he doesnt then geld him, If he does then you will have a good market for him.
You can always sell with the option to geld

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm not against keeping him entire, if it is the right thing.

In the Arab breed there are three known genetic disorders, Lavender Foal Syndrome (LFS), Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disorder (SCID) and Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA). I believe that all three need two copies for the horse to be affected. There have been some very successful carrier stallions that have been carefully bred to mares that are not carriers.

One that springs to mind is the stallion Master Design GA. He is a carrier of SCID (see website http://www.masterdesign-ga.com/pedigree.htm) which is not hidden at all. The transparency is needed to ensure that it is not possible for a positive/positive foal to be conceived.

He is an exceptional halter stallion, IIRC he won at Scottsdale as a foal.

The ridden Arab Marcus Aurelius is an LFS carrier. He has shown at HOYS and is an AHS premium performance stallion, so again top class in his field.
http://www.avonbrookstud.co.uk/stallions.html

I just thought that this might interest you. A different breed, but both carriers of a genetic issue.

 

[Jericho]

I'm not against keeping him entire, if it is the right thing.

In the Arab breed there are three known genetic disorders, Lavender Foal Syndrome (LFS), Severe Combined Immunodeficiency Disorder (SCID) and Cerebellar Abiotrophy (CA). I believe that all three need two copies for the horse to be affected. There have been some very successful carrier stallions that have been carefully bred to mares that are not carriers.

One that springs to mind is the stallion Master Design GA. He is a carrier of SCID (see website http://www.masterdesign-ga.com/pedigree.htm) which is not hidden at all. The transparency is needed to ensure that it is not possible for a positive/positive foal to be conceived.

He is an exceptional halter stallion, IIRC he won at Scottsdale as a foal.

The ridden Arab Marcus Aurelius is an LFS carrier. He has shown at HOYS and is an AHS premium performance stallion, so again top class in his field.
http://www.avonbrookstud.co.uk/stallions.html

I just thought that this might interest you. A different breed, but both carriers of a genetic issue.

Thank you that is really interesting and I very much appreciate your thoughts and help - absolutely agree transparency and responsibility is key to sustaining healthy breeding lines

 

[tda]

He is a carrier but not affected. One of the reasons I was going to geld him anyway. However after doing some research there have been recommendations that it is important to NOT NOT use carriers AS long as the mare is tested N/N (responsible breeding etc) otherwise the gene pool is reduced. I totally am not fussed about breeding from him, or him being a top stallion etc particularly with carrier status. I would also need to look into his breeding much more - more interested in how him being entire would affect his performance in the future and his happiness /well being. I certainly wouldn’t have considered buying an older stallion but I am faced with an irreversible decision and want to make sure I make the right decision

There is a genetic issue with Dales ponies too, the official line is of course if the stallion is a carrier and the mare is not, then the stallion can be used (small gene pool already)
Not sure if anybody would use a stallion that is a carrier? You need to find out xx

 

[Cortez]

I've had stallions for years, all sorts of breeds; I only geld if they are rude, or if I want to sell as it's easier to find a buyer for a gelding, and I 'd also worry about how they end up (a lot of people who think they can handle stallions actually can't).