Keeping Entire

[Irishcobs]

1)If you had a really good foal that was very good mannered, good conformation and had the factilities to keep a stallion would you keep it entire with the view to breed from it?
2)If no to the first question, if the sire was no dead and no semen left would you keep the foal entire to carry on the lines?
3) Even if had a correct foal but no factilities to keep a stallion would you send then away to somewhere that can keep them?

Hope that makes sense. I do not have the factilities to keep a stallion and wouldn't like to send it away so I would have it gelded even if it was superb and the last in a good line.

 

[MillionDollar]

I would only ever keep a colt entire if it had excellent manners/temperament, conformation, movement and a potential to be a good competition horse. Also i would only ever keep something entire with all of its breeding to be known.

I know there have been acceptions to this, and they've turned out to be fantastic stallions with stunning offspring, but it is rare.

So to answer-
1) Yes
3) Yes, if i had the money and the foal was that good, with a lot of potential. However, i do have the facilities to keep a stallion if i wanted to anyway.

 

[Paint it Lucky]

1) yes
2) Don't know
3) Maybe

 

[henryhorn]

We're going to have to replace Chocolate at some point and tend to leave our colts until they are yearlings before gelding them.
Up to now I have only had one I would have kept entire and that died!(infection)
There are so many stallions about who you see at comps and think "Why on earth don't they geld that?!) so it will have to be very special before we keep one entire.
Unless you havbe your own land and facilities don't even consider it, livery yards seem to hate stallions and unless they get adequate turn out they soon become iffy to handle.
The other suggestion is contact a top stud such as Langaller and ask their honest opinion. If your foal is that good, believe me they will tell you to keep it entire and offer to stand it!
These days a stallion has to be seen to compete and be able to hold it's own in it's chosen discipline , if it can't, it's not worth breeding with.
If we were in the position of a dead stallion and that was the only option yes, I would keep one entire, but then I can afford to have a few duds and geld them and the stallion if it isn't any good. Without the breeding facilities and money to waste (and I waste loads of it on the horses

) it's a very very expensive gamble....
If you think you have something decent perhaps run it out at a stud with other colts until it matures, although gelding them later is a bigger op it can be done.
My main advice would be ask the experts before you do anything.

 

[Irishcobs]

My boss was going to keep one of her boys entire. The sire is dead, but he has a slightly wonky leg so he was gelded. Shame really as he is a really lovely boy.

 

[AndyPandy]

If you are worried about losing the ability to breed, but still think that the colt should be gelded (for whatever reason), then post-castration semen collections can be performed, and are a good option in these cases, or with sudden death/euthanasia. Semen can be flushed from the epidiymis (the bit behind the testicle), and frozen for breeding at a later date. PM me if you want any more information.

 

[magic104]

1)If you had a really good foal that was very good mannered, good conformation and had the factilities to keep a stallion would you keep it entire with the view to breed from it? - With the view to having it assessed on a yearly basis & only kept if it graded

2)If no to the first question, if the sire was no dead and no semen left would you keep the foal entire to carry on the lines? No point unless the colt was as point 1

3) Even if had a correct foal but no factilities to keep a stallion would you send then away to somewhere that can keep them? The cost implications would inhibit that option, unless you could get a syndicate together. If it was that good then there should not be a problem.

 

[airedale]

you could keep entire until 2 if he's on a stud with other colts and able to be turned out and then submit him for grading
if he passed then OK - you've got a graded colt and now he needs a serious competition record to attract a good book of mares
if he doesn't then cut him
if you have no facilities to stand a stallion there are now a number of good stallion stations where he could stand - but again this is expensive

a decent stallion advert in a few publications each year and you are looking at 1500 to 2000 quid for adverts, websites, etc

basically - ignore the 'good or not good' colt bit

1. can you afford the extra cost of having a stallion at livery - few yards will have them
2. can you afford the cost of advertising and promoting your stallion
3, can you afford to compete him seriously at BD, BE, BSJA or pay someone to do it for you
4. can you afford to have a mare or two of your own to use him on so that you get 'stock' from him out and about ?

even if he is the most fantastic colt and he passed a grading - you'd still need 1 thru 4 above - every year

LOTS of dosh required

 

[htobago]

Leaving aside the questions about facilities, etc., which others have answered, I still think a colt has to have much more than just 'good' conformation and temperament to be kept entire.

IMO only a truly outstanding colt, with excellent conformation, breed type, movement, presence, etc. - and with an equally outstanding pedigree - should even be considered as a potential stallion.

And even then I'd want to show him as a yearling and see how he fared against the best of his peers...

If a young stallion is good enough he will attract mares.

 

[magic104]

Quote "IMO only a truly outstanding colt, with excellent conformation, breed type, movement, presence, etc. - and with an equally outstanding pedigree - should even be considered as a potential stallion. " Sometimes though this is not always the case. I have seen photo's of stallions in the breeding of both my colts & both have very famous stallions that now adays would probably be overlooked. Also when we talk about excellent confirmation, that is a bit subjective. For one thing each breed can vary in what is deemed as "excellent confirmation" for its type. Then you have what is deemed as the ideal confirmation depending on the discipline, for instance eventers can be slightly long in the back whereas SJ's can be slightly short in the back. Some of the top athletes have had quirky temperments. Though obviously for the everyday rider it is different. Also a good show horse may not actually produce good competition horses, so winning in the show ring is no indication if you want to produce an eventer say, unless they are winning is sport's horse classes. You only have to look to the racing industry to see that some of the top racing stallions failed to produce progeny that matched their own performance. And not many of them would have been short on good mares to cover.

 

[Tia]

In answer to your questions, my replies would be;

1. It depends.
2. No I wouldn't keep a stallion entire for a reason such as this - I expect there are lots of mares who can capably carry on the sires line.
3. No I would never send my stallions away to a stud - if I didn't have the facilities myself, then I wouldn't consider keeping a stallion.



My guy has very stunning bloodlines - they are also incredibly rare lines. I bred him to 3 of my mares; 2 have foaled and both look like their mothers. Neither appear to have picked up anything from their father, although the lovely temperament may have been passed along, but who knows as the mares all have superb temperaments also.

He has nice conformation, he has a fantastic temperament, he is a very gentle horse who has never put a foot wrong, AND he has the pedigree which should have made him a fantastic sire - many people asked if I could stand him to outside mares and they wanted to book him, however this was never part of what I planned to do with him, he was only to be used on my own mares.

Anyway the long and the short of it is; I have some young fillies living here who are worth more than my farm LOL!! I was finding that even though my guy is lovely and he is happy in with his band of mares, I felt that he couldn't be kept in a field which adjoined any fillies owned by someone else so although we did consider building another field slightly away from the others for him and his herd, we ended up deciding that this was not worthwhile for the amount of breeding we might do.

One other issue which crossed my mind was that I wanted to start riding him out and although he is very calm with my horses, ones that he knows well, the trails on my farm are often used by my neighbours; most of them have mares and I know exactly how my guy reacts when a new mare comes on the scene so the last thing I wanted was to meet one of these mares up in the forest.

So to give a run down, good breeding or not;

Complicated turn out.
Not being able to ride out.
Not putting a whole lot of himself into the offspring.
Keeping seriously expensive WB fillies at the farm.
Daughter wouldn't be able to show him as you have to be 18 to show a stallion.
Lack of use for his services by us.
I wouldn't allow him standing to outside mares.

Seemed that the right decision was to geld him - and I am sure it was, even though many people were very disappointed in my decision....hey ho! I know it was the best one for us.

 

[Navalgem]

1. yes
3. no - but only because I couldn't afford to send him away as well as the many other numerous costs associated with keeping a stallion.

I bought a stunning colt foal from horsegroupie, he's now 2 and so far I've kept him entire and hope to keep him that way. I always wanted a stallion but if he fails his grading, stats to act like an idiot etc he will be cut. He's already covered and got in foal my mare and my 2 year old daughter comes in the stable with him and pats his knees and he's a star, he's not been difficult to handle (even around covering and since covering) and I intend to just treat him the same as any other horse, just be a little bit more aware of his body language and read situations / scenarios as much in advance as possible to prevent any possible accidents. luckily my YO has loads of stallion experience so I always have someone more experienced than I to ask for help if needed.

As said in prev post, stallions are individuals and some will happily lead about in headcollar, others need chifneys, some can be stabled next to mares some cant, some will hack out and pass in-season mares and behave whilst others wont. It's a case of weighing up all the pro's and cons and working out at what point you'd call it quits and have him cut. I have both a mare and a gelding that behave far worse than my 'entire'. There is also a 16hh Arab stallion on the yard who led about in headcollar and leadrope, although he prances about (always at your side and doesn't pull), tosses his head and screams a lot. Lots of people would be intimidated by him but a confidant child could handle him easily.

The debate is endless, geld a stallion that looks naff but it may out-perform everything, pass on good genes and be more worthwhile breading from than a better put together horse who doesn't pass on his good 'genes'. Then there's the mares, ppl think it's more acceptable to breed from a 'naff' mare than a 'naff' stallion, why?? and the other hand, your averegae rc or happy hacker (and lower-level comp rider) probably couldnt afford to have potential grand-prix horses or the ones that just werent good enough for the top riders. Both stallion and mrae owners need to attend to all types of markets.