Kelp??

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lennysmith

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I've just switched my puppy Tarka on to the BARF diet. She's already looking better, put on more weight and her runs have cleared up too!

I've read that kelp would be good to give her, but how much do I give? It's cheap from holland and barrett but dont want to end up over dosing her. You can also get something called sa37 or something like that, thats specially for dogs. Would this be a better idea for her?

Thanks xx
 
Don't know about the kelp but I used to own a petshop and we sold tonnes of the SA37 - never used it myself but breeders seem to swear by it for pregnant/lactating bitches and growing pups. Vets recommend it too so must be good!
 
I used SA37 on my rescued lurcher as he was in such a terrible state when I got him and he was like a new man within a few weeks. Incidentaly, I also used it when he started eating strange plants incase he had a mineral deficiency and it cured that too. I believe it's quite easy to overdo the kelp but not sure what the side effects are. Have a look on www.hiltonherbs.co.uk as they do all that sort of thing and can advise you of dosage
 
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totally off post ,but nice to have you back josiejo .
how are the horses???

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Naww thankies. Didn't think anyone would realise I'd gone!!
The horses are fab ta. Baby D is growing like a weed and is so hansome (if I do say so myslef). Josie is loving being back into work and is shaping up quite nicely. My friend has been riding for me over the past few eeks as I've not been too well. I rode for the first time in 4 weeks on Sun evening and couldn't believe the difference. Am really pleased with her.

How's you?
 
if your pup is eating a good variety of meats and RMB, veggies ect, you should'nt need to suppliment, although i gave vitamin C while my 2 were growing, but i have giant breed dogs that are more prone to growth issues.
 
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although i gave vitamin C while my 2 were growing,

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Sorry to be a smart arse, but did you know that humans, new world monkeys and guinea pigs are the only animals that need and can metabolise Vitamin C? I know because it's the only thing I can remember from a 2 year animal husbandary course at college! That, and an elephant is the only animal in the world with 4 knees.
 
hi there, i did actually do a lot of reseach before changing my dogs to a barf diet, if you dont get it just about right, things can go very wrong. see below. you do indeed live and learn.

xxx

The common wisdom is that humans, other primates, guinea pigs, and a few birds need to get vitamin C in their diets. Since the rest of the animals produce it within their own bodies, they no doubt make enough, right? Well, maybe not. In this article, a doctor of veterinary medicine looks at the effects of vitamin C supplementation in dogs and its benefit in fighting arthritis, and other ailments.

Dogs of all ages suffer with various joint and spinal disorders, including hip dysplasia, osteoarthritis, non-specific arthritis, osteochrondritis, spondylitis and spondylosis. Treatment often consists of rest. surgery and/or steroids, nonspecific anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDS), aspirin, penicillamine or methotrexate. Many therapeutic compounds produce only short-term benefits and may actually accelerate the progression of joint destruction.

Nutritional Considerations

Vitamin C is a vital nutrient in bone and cartilage metabolism. Although dogs, unlike humans, can manufacture their own vitamin C, they may not produce enough to counter the effects of aging, stress, inherited dysfunctions, environmental irritants and poor quality or high fat pet foods.

In fact, early studies in dogs and horses suggest that daily vitamin C supplementation might be beneficial in reducing chronic inflammation. Unfortunately; ordinary vitamin C may cause gastrointestinal upsets i dogs. A form of vitamin C that would promote higher levels of intracellular ascorbic acid without negative side effects would be a useful and unique product.

Clinical Study

The effect of different forms of vitamin C on various locomotor dysfunctions of dogs were investigated by veterinarians at The Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Utah. Over 100 case studies were evaluated, using varying strengths and combinations of mineral ascorbates, ascorbic acid and microcrystalline cellulose during a six-month period. The results indicate that a patented vitamin C ascorbate / vitamin C metabolite complex, administered orally, may have application for the reduction of discomfort associated with nonspecific, chronic inflammatory disorders of dogs. The vitamin C ascorbate / metabolite complex used in the study was Ester-C.

Product Background

According to the manufacturer, Inter-Cal Corporation, of Prescott, Arizona, Ester-C is a patented ascorbate supplement containing calcium ascorbate, naturally occurring dehydroascorbate and the vitamin C metabolite, threonate. Threonate permits ascorbate to be more rapidly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract, to cross cell membranes more efficiently, reach higher cellular levels and be excreted more slowly than ordinary vitamin C. Ester-C ascorbate is pH neutral and believed to be water and partially fat soluble.

Mechanism Of Action

Vitamin C may act as an immunoresponsive and chrondrogenerative agent. In degenerative (i.e., aging) or inflammatory conditions, collagen breakdown is excessive, resulting in joint discomfort and skeletal changes. A product that would provide high and prolonged levels of ascorbic acid would help compression resistance of cartilage, mobilized white blood cells to the site of inflammation, and enhance prostaglandin synthesis. The net result would be increased comfort and mobility.

Conclusion

78 percent of the study dogs receiving Ester-C calcium ascorbate showed improved mobility within four to five days.

The consistency and degree of response demonstrated that Ester-C calcium ascorbate provided symptomatic relief to the study dogs suffering from selected chronic joint and musculoskeletal disorders. The findings that the condition of many of the "improved" dogs deteriorated rapidly upon discontinuance of Ester-C ascorbate further verified its usefulness as primary or adjunctive therapy. These studies reinforced the earlier observations that supplemental Ester-C calcium ascorbate corrected mobility problems of dogs and horses.

The findings suggest that, although dogs can manufacture endogenous ascorbic acid, the amount produced my not be sufficient to prevent or counteract stresses associated with aging, injury or joint malpositioning.

From the results of this study, there is significant evidence to recommend oral Ester-C calcium ascorbate in the management of non-specific musculoskeletal disorders of dogs.
 
Phew, that's a long a complicated paper but well done for researching so well. You said in your original posting that you gave your dogs vitamin C, but Vitamin C in the the form we use causes gastrointestinal problems (which leads to improper absorbtion of other vitamins and minerals) as it states in your paper, and can't be metabolised correctly. What was it you gave your dogs? Did you manage to get hold of this Ester-C calcium ascorbate stuff?
 
you can buy ester-c in holland and barrett, but its expensive. so as advised by my forward thinking vet i gave 1000mg of supermarket brand vit c. i had no problems at all. ester-c is just said to be easier on the stomach.
 
Just out of interest I put 'vitamn C dogs' in a google search and this is the first article I came up with, which totally contradicts the article you based your research on. Also 1000mg is TWICE the daily dose for humans so who told you this was the correct dose? It's all a bit of a lottery but the article I've attached makes sense as clinically dogs do not need vitamin C as a supplement and it also points out the negative side effects which may not be noticable for years to come. Please have a look at http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/013.html and see what you think.
 
yes your right, but with most things like this oppinions differ hugely. barf feeding itself is a very contentious issue, with many differing theories. the article i posted was one of many that i studied. barf feeding was such a strange concept to me, i spent many months reading about it, before changing. i would use vitamin C only during growth or if i had joint/bone issues. the dose was as recommended by my vet (any excess is peed out). but as ive said before bare in mind that i own giant breed dogs, my male weighs in at around 13 stone.

xx
 
Oo it's all so confusing isn't it?

Jackie BARF is all a new concept to me too. But my pup is insisting I learn, and very quickly! It's the only thing I've found she'll eat and it wont give her runs.

You're right though the more you study the more different theories you end up reading.

Oneofthepack: I too was always under the impression that dogs didn't need to have vit c suplemented. However, it's all opinions and theories again isn't it?
 
ian billinghurst has a couple of pretty straight forward books, grow your pup on bones and give your dog a bone. i read the latter and found it very usful.

xx
 
Yes I saw the grow your pup on bones, have ordered it. Should be here next week so I'll have a good look through that.

Am only feeding her chicken and tripe at the mo as dont want to risk the squits again. Also she has/had a nasty rash on ehr tummy which actually seems to have cleared up (thought it was dietry) so I will add one new meat at a time just incase she's allergic to one sort. As for what bones I'll be giving her, thats all the more research for me!!
 
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