Kickers - whose responsibility?

[skewby]

Sorry, am a total newbie to hunting, and have lots of questions

Out on Thursday I found myself in a wood, behind a horse with a red ribbon. Having a big strong lad myself, I was making sure I kept a good distance, hard work as it was! However then the young girl on said red ribboned horse asked would I like to pass, which I thankfully did.

Which led me to ponder - does attaching a red ribbon absolve you of all responsibility, and say to the rest of the field, stay right away from my backend, whatever happens? Or, should you do what this lovely young girl did to me, and keep your horse's backend away from others, actively?

I should hasten to add, we were keeping a respectful distance, it wasn't a case of "get past because you're annoying me!" (I don't think ).

 

[TS_]

My mare kicks and so wears a red ribbon and I see it as completely my responsibilty. Therefore I make sure I stick to the back of the field, try not to get into a bunch of people going through a gate and where ever possible will vear over to the side to get out of peoples way.
Sometimes I do find people don't take a blind bit of notice about the red band I have in little mares tail and it does irritate me but I like to do as much as I can to ensure nothing happens. I'll always warn people as they're coming up and all the hunt regulars are grateful, I find it's the people who don't hunt often that're the worsed.
So I don't know what others think but IMO it's the person with the kicker to do as much as they can. Although there will always be times when you do your best but an accident happens.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I think its everyones responsibility, you should never go ramming your horse up another horses arse, thats just bad manners, but just having a red ribbon on isn't all you have to do - you need to be actively looking after the safety of other horses and riders too.

Ultimately, like everything, its a case of give and take.

 

[skewby]

Gosh that's interesting. Well done you! The only reason I ask, is that's the first time I've seen someone with a red ribbon keeping their horse out of the way. All the others I've seen (green ribbons too) have been trying to get to the front.

Although, I have to say, it's bloody good for me to learn to keep my keen lad a good distance back from others.

 

[skewby]

Kitsune does this mean you hunt now?? Cool! (Was it you who put up a post about finding a hunt, or offering your lad for hunting, or am I getting utterly addled??! (Wouldn't be the first time )

 

[chestnut cob]

Mine has to wear a red ribbon. I've never known him to kick but his owners say he has done out hunting in the past, though in his defence it's been when people on uncontrollable horses have used his big 17hh ID bum as a stopping post!

I make an effort to try to keep him out to the side or towards the back, and try to avoid cantering in tight groups. I've discussed it with the Masters and all know that he only kicks when people come careering into his backside, not when just standing around, and they're fine with it. One last week told me not to bother with a red ribbon because "any horse will kick when people ride into it so it's not really fair to call him a kicker if he's only done it under those circumstances".

Anyway, long and short of it is that I try to make as much effort as I can to keep out of people's way but equally, I do expect others not to get right up his backside (which you'd expect of anyone).

 

[SueEllen]

If my own horse kicked I would have the ribbon and keep to the back as well as being aware of what was behind me. That said you carnt be to blame for some idiot ignoring the red ribbon and barging into you, no matter hard you try to keep out of the way.

 

[posie_honey]

Mine has to wear a red ribbon. I've never known him to kick but his owners say he has done out hunting in the past, though in his defence it's been when people on uncontrollable horses have used his big 17hh ID bum as a stopping post!

i put a red ribbon on my hose for this exact problem - and my biggest bug bear - people using my horses substancial ID bum to stop with!! would turn even the nicest horse into a kicker!
but - she will also occasionally give an excited buck so i do keep out of peoples way

another bug bear of mine is having a kicking horse without a red ribbon - ok if ti's a first hunt you may not know but then they should be ain a green ribbon.... worst still is once said horse has kicked the rider still proceeding to ride in the middle of the field

or people who are out of control and cut you up at fences grrr!! and sso chuffing dangerous!

sorry mini rant there!!

 

[MrWoof]

Sorry, am a total newbie to hunting, and have lots of questions

Out on Thursday I found myself in a wood, behind a horse with a red ribbon. Having a big strong lad myself, I was making sure I kept a good distance, hard work as it was! However then the young girl on said red ribboned horse asked would I like to pass, which I thankfully did.

Which led me to ponder - does attaching a red ribbon absolve you of all responsibility, and say to the rest of the field, stay right away from my backend, whatever happens? Or, should you do what this lovely young girl did to me, and keep your horse's backend away from others, actively?

I should hasten to add, we were keeping a respectful distance, it wasn't a case of "get past because you're annoying me!" (I don't think ).

Anyone wearing a "Red Ribbon" should, really, have sorted out their horse's manners well before they even ventured forth into a hunting field.
However, anyone wearing Red or Green Ribbons should keep well out of the way, at the back - and carrying a beater to chastise anything if it kicks.
Nothing worse than a total half-wit wearing a Red Ribbon and not carrying anything to beat the offending set of 4-legs! Green Ribbons are fine - I always respect them and yell "coming up on the left/right"" if I am galloping past a Green Ribbon.
Red Ribbons are normally ridden by people with the same type of manners as their horse!!
Your situation really was a one in a million with an apology - but what was a Red Ribbon doing in front of you in the first instance?

 

[skewby]

Gosh really interesting responses, thanks guys! I must say, up until the other day I hadn't for a moment considered that the person on the kicker should think about positioning their horse appropriately. I had presumed it was a warning to everyone else, for everyone else to act on!

Having said that, it's totally unacceptable as you guys say, to ram your horse up someone else's bum! This has not happened to me yet, and I'm not sure I would like it if it did

 

[Orangehorse]

No one should use another horse for brakes, but sometimes it is very hard to avoid a scrimmage or a bit of argy-bargy, round a gate, a sharp turning, for instance. I think you shouldn't take a kicker, or even a green ribboned horse into those sorts of situations.

 

[Ranyhyn]

I haven't hunted yet but plan to by the end of Nov :grin: cannot wait.

Ps// Love your boy!

 

[skewby]

Seriously, give it a go...you will be hooked though!!

Thanks, he's a superstar

 

[marmalade76]

Once, when out Bloodhounding, we were trotting along a lane when a girl, who was right up the front, kept waving the folks following her away from her horse because she said it kicked. I asked why she had not put a red ribbon on it and her reply was that it only kicked when other horses got too close.....durrrr!?!

 

[Aniseed]

Mr Woof I think it is really unfair to say that all people who ride kickers have bad manners themselves. My horse kicks, she is a mare and doesn't llike having anything too close behind her, that is fairly natural behaviour. When I am out hunting she always has red tape in her tail, I stay as close to the back as possible and always turn her back end away from anyone that is passing. However there still seem to be people who think they are immune from being kicked an come up right behind me. Beating her with a stick when she kicked out would only serve to put her in a foul mood for the rest of the day and get me absolutely nowhere. I must say hunting has greatly improved my mares manners and the last couple of times she hasn't even thought about kicking.

 

[BigBird146]

Mr Woof.... what a load of rubbish... you can't 'beat your horse' for kicking out (a sharp tap maybe?)!! And I don't have bad manners, neither does my horse with people incidentally but he can get a bit stressy when he feels boxed in so, in answer to the original post, I wear red ribbon, keep to the back, avoid getting boxed in as much as I possibly can and hope that people who do end up behind me use a bit of common sense and keep their distance. At the end of the day though, we are riding horses who can be excitable, willful and a bit tempramental and if we just wanted to go around on beasts of burden which we'd beaten into submission Mr Woof, we'd have bought donkeys!

 

[wench]

My horse is a very seasoned hunter, and believed to be have been used quite a bit in hunt service, so he is well used to hunting. The few times I have taken him out he has behaved perfectly, with excellent manners. The last hunt I went on was nothing but trot stop, trot stop, which annoys him out hacking and puts him in a foul mood, needless to say he was in a very grumpy mood. Someone I know was riding behind me (we were in woods, so not much room to spread out);, and just asked them to stay back a bit, in case he decided to take a swipe (he hates other horses ramming up his bum), and needless to say he kicked out at horse up his bottom. Some old bag at the back of the hunt then started ranting and raving at me saying why is that horse here its a kicker etc? Bit hard to answer when hes never done it before!

Funny enough when we were on the way home we had a good trot in a tight bunch, and he never thought about doing it?

Would you class my horse as a kicker or not?

 

[BigBird146]

My view is I'd rather have a red ribbon to make people think twice about getting up your bum, than not have one; if someone ends up being kicked and then blames you as he's been known to do it before, I'm not sure where you'd stand. Maybe other people view red ribbons differently (see above)... like some sort of leporasy bell, but I just see them as a sensible precaution.

 

[Aniseed]

I agree, I think my horse is growing out of kicking as she is getting used to having lots of other horses close to her, but even if I hunt for a whole season and she doesn't kick I would still put red tape in her tail as it covers my back if she has a relapse!

 

[RunToEarth]

A kicking horse is the responsibility of the rider.
if you know your horse kicks put it at the back of the field, only an idiot would surround a known kicker with other horses.
With regards to people getting up their bums- that is a different matter, and one of manners.
I know my horse doesn't kick, but I have no problems telling people to back off when they use my horse's arse as a form of brakes.
No body with manners rides up another horse's bottom, no matter how placid it looks.

 

[livetoride]

It is totally the responsibility of the rider of a kicker to stay away from trouble and that means at the back of the field. Do not for one moment think that putting a red ribbon in the tail gives you a licence to take a kicker wherever you feel like.

If your horse so much as lifts a leg at another horse or, God forbid, a hound then, as Mr Woof suggests, you will be expected to give him a good walloping - a sharp tap is not enough, he needs to be taught a lesson he will never forget.

 

[kickandshout]

i have only hunted once (newcomers day) on a borrowed 'safe cob'
But the 'safe cob' turned into a beast with no brakes albiet still safe so im publicly apologising for using anothers horses bum as a brake ok i only did it once and apologised profusly the gentleman in the red coat (pink?) said its a newcomers day so dont worry this time but dont do it again.
im thinking of having another go with my own horse ( s.jer mainly) whos never been hunting although hes done a fun ride or two. im also thinking staying at the back is going to require hefty brakes !! :crazy:

so getting to the point will i look daft with a variety of ribbons . . . he does kick ( usually wears a red ribbon) he a newbie (green ribbon???) and im so far not brave enough so would i need a yellow ribbon as well as plenty of port beforehand LOL

 

[MrWoof]

My horse is a very seasoned hunter, and believed to be have been used quite a bit in hunt service, so he is well used to hunting. The few times I have taken him out he has behaved perfectly, with excellent manners. The last hunt I went on was nothing but trot stop, trot stop, which annoys him out hacking and puts him in a foul mood, needless to say he was in a very grumpy mood. Someone I know was riding behind me (we were in woods, so not much room to spread out);, and just asked them to stay back a bit, in case he decided to take a swipe (he hates other horses ramming up his bum), and needless to say he kicked out at horse up his bottom. Some old bag at the back of the hunt then started ranting and raving at me saying why is that horse here its a kicker etc? Bit hard to answer when hes never done it before!

Funny enough when we were on the way home we had a good trot in a tight bunch, and he never thought about doing it?

Would you class my horse as a kicker or not?

No, definitely not.
Some people should find the manners not to ram others up the posterior.
I qualified point-to-pointers for years and none of them were kickers. However, after a scamper or two and then a period of standing still, they used to do what most TBs will - and that is to stamp backwards.
Some half-wit was standing right up my back end one day and my horse just stamped. Her reaction was "your horse just tried to kick me".
"NO, he did not - and if you were that close - you were too close."
When I am slowing down, I always use a very old hunting trick - put your right-hand in the small of your back, with your fingers splayed out.
This means that you are slowing down - usually heading towards a queue at a gate or fence.
If you do this, then no-one has the excuse that they did not know you were slowing down.
Rather like brake lights really.
Never be afraid to ask people to "back off" - especially when jumping. They should leave you at least two strides after landing before they attempt to jump.

 

[MrWoof]

It is totally the responsibility of the rider of a kicker to stay away from trouble and that means at the back of the field. Do not for one moment think that putting a red ribbon in the tail gives you a licence to take a kicker wherever you feel like.

If your horse so much as lifts a leg at another horse or, God forbid, a hound then, as Mr Woof suggests, you will be expected to give him a good walloping - a sharp tap is not enough, he needs to be taught a lesson he will never forget.

THANK YOU.
To someone who actually knows what they are talking about.

I had a fatal accident on the most wonderful hunter due to a total half-wit sitting on a kicker with no beater, manners, brakes et al.
Even worse, I never received an apology afterwards.
That is why I never hunt mounted on Boxing Day.

 

[kick_On]

kicker - should have red ribbon on and BE AT BACK out of the way and if not i ask them WHAT are you doing up front or in gateway!!!

Last year my horse was kicked by a red ribboned horse in gateway, i allowed buckets of room but i just didn't expect this horse to hit reverse and then kicker MY HORSE.

I told woman straight what she should do - go to back or go HOME! as i had to go HOME!!

As responsibility - they just shouldn't be OUT !! and where i hunt they are defo not welcome (or at back out of way) and it even say this on meet cards etc...

Now if we talking about your horse being used as brakes IMHO - i expect my horse to say FO and kick and if not i do turn around and let rider again KNOW where they should be going - either home or back to yard to put in more brakes in said horses mouth!!!

 

[MrWoof]

My view is I'd rather have a red ribbon to make people think twice about getting up your bum, than not have one; if someone ends up being kicked and then blames you as he's been known to do it before, I'm not sure where you'd stand. Maybe other people view red ribbons differently (see above)... like some sort of leporasy bell, but I just see them as a sensible precaution.

If you are wearing a Red Ribbon, then what are you doing in front of other people anyway?
Red Ribbons should be well out the back - and not in front of anyone else.

I respect Green Ribbons far more than Red ones.

Our Field Masters keep a very beady eye on Red Ribbons - and tell them exactly where they should position themselves in the field.

 

[MrWoof]

Mr Woof.... what a load of rubbish... you can't 'beat your horse' for kicking out (a sharp tap maybe?)!! And I don't have bad manners, neither does my horse with people incidentally but he can get a bit stressy when he feels boxed in so, in answer to the original post, I wear red ribbon, keep to the back, avoid getting boxed in as much as I possibly can and hope that people who do end up behind me use a bit of common sense and keep their distance. At the end of the day though, we are riding horses who can be excitable, willful and a bit tempramental and if we just wanted to go around on beasts of burden which we'd beaten into submission Mr Woof, we'd have bought donkeys!

Any horse which kicks - in any situation - needs a couple of very serious wallops on the back end.
As someone else said on this post, what if your horse kicked a hound? That is the most serious offence one could ever commit in the hunting field.
Would you then have given it just "a tap"?
In the good old days, you would have been sent home.
We are not talking about dusting the best china here - we are talking about giving a bad-mannered horse a serious wallop.
Yes, having been hunting since 1956, I am very well aware that horses can be excitable, wilfull, etc - but they have to have PERFECT manners in the hunting field.

 

[kick_On]

HERE, HERE - Mr Woof - and if i had my hip flask would defo pass it on to you

 

[kit279]

If you have a horse that kicks and you know it kicks, don't take it hunting! My father's polo ponies were seriously disciplined if they kicked and if they didn't learn pronto, they didn't play polo end of. Unlike hunting, in polo you often ride off with other horses - but they mustn't kick and they must NOT bite when they do it. There are plenty of things you can do with a horse that kicks, but galloping in a big excitable group when you are close to others is not one of them.

 

[MrWoof]

HERE, HERE - Mr Woof - and if i had my hip flask would defo pass it on to you

Thank you - a tincture is always much appreciated.
What do you have in your flask?
I either have my home-made Damson Gin or a "Percy Special", which is half Cherry Brandy and half Scotch.
A PC goes from mouth to toes in 10 seconds flat.