Kicking/whipping on take off

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WannabeEventer

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Ok I’m looking for advice... I’m British but currently living in California. I have a 4 yr old (rising 5) that I handled, backed and now getting ready to event. He’s a lovely type, bold, willing and learns quickly.

I’ve been having weekly lessons with an international eventer to help me with jumping. My horse is really easy going and figures out grids/exercises quickly.

Recently, during a XC lesson, the instructor proclaimed “I’ve never known anyone to not use a whip while jumping, if you can’t kick him to take off and encourage him to pick his feet up then you need to hit him”, I told her I don’t believe in whipping for such a thing and I’d rather take time and he if doesn’t get it right go to something he does understand and build him up... the issue was a trakehner jump, he’d be focused on the bottom of the jump so would get deep but still jump. I’m not going to consequence for green mistakes especially when he’s trying.

At the end of the lesson, she again made statements that “I’d not make it as an eventer without kicking or whipping my horses on take off to make them jump”, I said well we’ll agree to disagree.

Also I’m not a fantastic rider but I compete BE 90/100.

So I guess I want to know others thoughts, I’d always been taught to get a good rhythm in my canter, keep horse between my hand and leg and let the jump come to me, but never to command to the horse when to jump or how high because during schooling the horse should figure it out on their own (for the most part)...

Thoughts please?
 
Well at some point you will have to kick when eventing even on the best horse but the idea that you punish a young horse for jumping a fence a bit green is ridiculous!
The fact your lad is bold and happy to jump the things you point him at suggests your doing a good enough job. You are right horses do have to learn to figure out where their legs are, you can’t possibly place them perfectly their entire lives, nor can you actually tell them how high to jump just by kicking them. I can only presume what she meant came across in the wrong way, as what she is saying doesn’t make much sense.
 
So, the horse goes obediently to the fence, takes off and is whipped on take off? So, it is a bit like "Hey you, how DARE you take off!"?

I have slapped them down the neck on take off if I think it is for safety, such as skewing sideways on a corner, but other than that I keep take off as undramatic as I can, so they can focus on clearing the fence.

If a horse is hesitating on take off I would sharpen them to the leg by a leg, slap and test with a further leg, but that would be in-between the fence so we are back on the aids for the next fence. I have even done that soon after landing, but the slap would be if they ignored a leg aid. Ignoring a leg aid is dangerous, particularly XC, so I will attend to that with a whip without beating myself up.

I only evented to Intermediate and have actually had to have the conversation where a trainer said I would have to be more ruthless to go higher, and I was sure in my mind that if I have to do 'X' to go higher then I would rather stay as I am.

Also, I would be interested in who the trainer is. Also, what level they ride at. I mean, I am very mediocre but have done 3 CCI* (now CCI**) so could, presumably, say I am an International Eventer.

Besides, I was training where an Olympian was training in 2012, (NOT team GBR) and saw this successful eventer beat his horse with a whip and get off his horse twice to boot it in the tummy and generally tousle it around. I didn't have a camera on me or I would have seen to it that he was no longer in his team for London 2012. At the time my own horse was terrified so all I could do was keep him out of the way. He is a very successful competitor but would never want to employ his methods!
 
I think a lot of things from lessons get lost in translation so maybe there is some confusion? At the Maynard clinic in summer Tik said his only use for a whip is as encouragement in front of a fence if a horse had a good line, had a good canter but was backing off a bit. And always assuming the horse was not afraid in which case he would go back a step or 6 to let horse explore the fence. It was a "hey let's go" message. Maybe your horse was hesitant? Maybe he was not lifting up enough risking a fall? Maybe it was meant to be a temporary strategy while horse was learning. And not a punishment but just another cue.

If not then yes agree with all the others that it is nonsense. Another thing Tik said is that if the horse is locked on and taking you to the fence the last thing you want to do is kick, hit or do anything to distract the horse from the job he is already doing.
 
It’s very difficult to comment on this because we are hearing your interpretation of a 2 way conversation and there is context to consider. As none of us were witness to the lesson or conversation I’m reluctant to comment specifically on your situation.

What I will make however is a generic comment.

When you are training a horse for Xc/Eventing you need to train them to understand the aids, take you forwards confidently, stay straight, trust you etc etc. That shouldn’t/doesn’t need to be done by bullying or being overly aggressive. So in general when training a younger horse I wouldn’t want to be going to the whip frequently. It’s about layering on the training so they understand the job.

That said Xc is a dangerous activity. As fences get bigger and trickier, however well trained your horse is, there will be times when you have to strongly reinforce an aid to negotiate the obstacle safely. This may well involve the whip. It’s either that or you risk crashing, and that is really unfair on the horse. So even at an early stage of training them there is an element of them needing to understand the concept of ‘if I say go, I mean go’.

So I would say real green baby Xc schooling, look and learn. As they progress you need to be more insistent they are on the aid.

To that end you really should carry a whip Xc. There are padded versions available that are more horse friendly.
 
you sound like a good trainer.

the worst thing is to interfere with a horse by kicking it when on the approach to a jump

the second worst is listening to people who tell you to punish a young horse when you should be rewarding it for trying to understand what you are asking it to do

the sharp reaction needed when not quite right comes from training it in, part of the process of sharpening up, the whip is a last resort
 
Well, I generally agree with your statements but perhaps she meant the whole picture needed a bit more "oomph" to be decisive and therefore safer? She has a point that you should be proactively doing something if the horse is actively backing off or in danger or burying itself under the fence through being tentative, although I would generally think that taking action on takeoff is a bit late to be effective. Especially if the horse is young and green, perhaps she is suggesting nipping a tendency in the bud before it becomes a habit and encourage him to stand off the fence a bit more. Its hard to say without seeing.
 
If this instructor said exactly what you have quoted, obviously it's nonsense. However, I'd never advocate going XC without a stick, it's there for when you need to get your point across quickly and focus the horses mind if it's backing off or inattentive.
 
It’s all about feel. If I’m on a good line, I know the horse is locked onto the fence and is taking me into it in a good rhythm then I keep my leg on, sit quietly and leave him alone. If I’ve put him on a good line, but he’s distracted or backing off I would give him a kick or a tap with the whip to get his attention and keep him straight. This would be several strides out from takeoff though. In my opinion, especially with such a young horse, you need to sit quietly on takeoff or you risk unbalancing them. Your job is to make sure your horse is on a good line, in a good rhythm and listening to you. He needs to work out how to get from one side of the fence to the other. At his age you will have lots of green baby moments where he chips in a stride or takes off three strides out, but making mistakes is how they learn and as long as he is willing and bold I wouldn’t be doing anything different. I would always advocate carrying a whip, I just personally wouldn’t use it in the way your instructor has suggested.
 
Jumping anything over a tiny cross i carry a whip in case they suddenly back off so we don't end up in trouble but that being said i don't jump green horses as I'm not an experienced jumper and this situation sounds like he's just green and needs time to figure it out for himself
 
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