Kineton Noseband - advice needed

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FemelleReynard

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Hi all,

I've recently got a new horse which the previous owner hunted in a full cheek waterford with a flash. I also hunted the horse in this and I found him hard to stop (although he did stop eventually, just after lots of pulling to gradually slow him down).

Since having him and riding him more and getting to know him, I've found that the issue is that he just puts his head in the air and goes, and you have the battle of getting his head back down to then pull him up. When his head is down he does come back to you eventually.

I've tried him in a 3 ring dutch gag with a waterford mouthpiece with reins on the second loop and it helped me to keep his head down a bit more than normal but it still wasn't as much control as I felt I needed. I probably should try it on the third loop too but haven't got round to this yet.

I'm conscious of the fact that he's been hunted for 2 season in the full cheek waterford/flash combination so he can't be that bad (but he was hunted by a man) but for me personally (as a girl who's not as strong as a man!), I just feel I need more control to be safe. I'm not so keen on 'bitting him up' too much as he's ok normally with the waterford, what I'd really want is something to keep his head down more.

Someone suggested a kineton noseband to me, but I'd like to know a little bit more about these before I 1. make the investment for one (they seem very expensive!) and 2. use it and potentially not use it correctly.

Does a kineton help to bring a horses head down? Can it be used with a flash noseband (I've seen horses with them on over grackles but wasn't sure if you could do this with a flash too)? I've read that you're only supposed to use them with a snaffle type bits so I'd revert back to using the full cheek waterford with it.

Any help/advice would be much appreciated, and thank you for taking the time to read this incredibly long post!
 
My first thought would be to try the Waterford dutch gag with two reins and a leather curb and see how he goes in that.

I hunted in a Kineton on my previous horse and it did work well but it isn't for everyone.

It is an efficient way to stop the bit from hurting the mouth if the horse trips or pulls etc, because it moves the pressure away from the bars and onto the nose. It has a restraining function on the nose of the horse, like a hackamore without leverage.

The kineton can be adjusted so that most of the traction from the reins be taken up by the noseband, or less, or hardly anything.

Used in a correct way, it can help hot, rushing, sensitive horses from fearing the bit, and it can also help horses who open their mouths against a conventional noseband.
 
I found a Market Harborough effective for a horse that stuck his head up and hollowed his back to try to evade the bit. I was able to switch to a kinder bit as well.
 
I use a kineton on my excitable and strong mare and it suits us well and gives me the brakes I need. I use it with a Myler snaffle with hooks for a mild poll pressure back up. You wouldn't use kineton with a flash.

I like the kineton because it allows me to have very light hands and only engage it mildly to get the result I'm after (i.e. control in big groups). I don't use it day to day, just not necessary.

Remember if you do use one you need to get a bit 1/2" bigger than your normal size to accommodate it.
 
I agree with Runtoearth, and I would certainly try one before you purchase as what works for one horse is just as likely not to work on another!

I have tried one in the past but it didn't help that particular horse. I would play around with what you have first tbh.
 
I love my kineton for my slightly bonkers TB!!! He`s not strong and has a very very sensitive mouth but does a very good camel impression when I ask to stop xc! I use it with a full cheek happy mouth snaffle and it is sooo much better.
 
My incredibly strong ex-hunter has a waterford dutch gag with two reins (on snaffle ring and bottom ring) for exciting stuff. It's the ONLY bit I can stop him in when he starts - believe me I tried almost everything. I know every horse is different, but yours does sound quite similar to him. I use the bottom rein as little as possible so when I need it, it really has an effect. He has a running martingale on the snaffle rein but I have been known to put it on the bottom rein when he's been really bad and I was surprised how much extra it gave me.
 
I had a strong mare and used to hunt in a wateford with a kineton. As she seemed to work out how to evade bits I sometimes used a waterford 3 ring with 2 reins as an alternative.
 
My OH has a IDxTB that is very hard mouthed - he pokes his nose like a racehorse crossing the finishing line,and just goes. We have him in a cherry roller Cheltenham gag, which stops him bearing down on the bit, and a kineton which seems to bring his head down and in. Without the kineton, he just sticks his nose up and out.

We're big fans of kinetons, as they only have an effect when the horse pulls, and drop slack if the horse is being polite :-)
 
Thank you for all the help and advice, it's good to see things from a different angle.

I think I'll try double reins on the dutch gag to start with. RunToEarth, you mentioned attaching a curb, how would I do this? Would it just attach to the top hoops?

annagain, yes, they do sound quite similar so I will try that! He's fine normally, but like yours in exciting, fast situations I lose all hope in stopping.

Think I'll try the few things mentioned on here first before resorting to the kineton, so thanks again.
 
to attach a curb you can either buy/steal the hooks off a Pelham (very tricky, a strong man and pliers needed.)

or use a flash strap looped through the top rings (that you put the cheekpieces on) and back on itself. Don't do it up too tightly as it stops the gag doing its job but you should be able to pull reins so the gag moves probably 45 degress before the curb touches the jaw. Also make sure you use lots of plaiting bands/keepers to make sure the 2 halves of the flash stay together.
 
OK With your description you are using a bit which can be quite evil and the reason the poor horse is running around with his head up.

Go back to considering the action of the bit. Snaffles raise the head so forget the Waterford, Dutch gag or Kineton noseband. Instead use a bit that encourages the horse to lower its head.
A Pelham, a Kimblewick or an Uttoxeter.

My first try would be the Pelham, preferably with two reins, or if you are not happy about two reins go for the split rein, which is better than a rounding.

Mouthpiece for the Pelham, I'd go for a Cambridge mouth as this allows room for the tongue and drops the bit more onto the bars of the mouth.

Be sure to do the curb chain up correctly by passing it through the bit rings. This ensures that the chain stays in the chin groove and the lips are not pinched between the chain and bit.

Correct fitting of chain
Pelhamchainthroughring.jpg



Pelham with Cambridge mouthpiece
PelhamCambridgemouth.jpg
 
i have used a kineton with either huge success or absolutely none, they either go really well in them or they dont like them AT ALL!

the horse i used one on with the most success was a big rangy TB that i hunted & team chased, i either used the kineton with a twisted snaffle or a cheltenham gag, and always used it with a grackle, just because this worked well with him, i tried a number of different combos until i found this one.

some horses really dislike the nose pressure, so id definitely try one before you buy one
 
ditto pop a curb strap on, it really should be used with one anyway - it stops it over rotating and leaving you on poll pressure only. I just use a flash strap looped through the top rings.

you can just see it here

165984_10151965142565438_908034443_n.jpg
 
Last edited:
ester said:
ditto pop a curb strap on, it really should be used with one anyway - it stops it over rotating and leaving you on poll pressure only. I just use a flash strap looped through the top rings.

you can just see it here

165984_10151965142565438_908034443_n.jpg
Click to expand...

Great idea, it will however increase poll pressure which will help get your horses head down. A Dutch Gag is really a strange bit as it is a bit of nothing special action bit.
 
The important bit is more that it stops this happening:

When the rein is pulled back and up, the side piece is pulled forward and down. But since the side piece stops it from actually moving down, the pivotal point - the mouth piece will instead be pulled up, into the corner of the mouth, and against the teeth.'

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#pessoa

It also means that you are applying curb pressure as well as poll pressure- I have never pulled really hard in it though! He isn't particularly strong most of the time just a darn site more spooky in his snaffle.
 
AJT92 said:
Thank you for all the help and advice, it's good to see things from a different angle.

I think I'll try double reins on the dutch gag to start with. RunToEarth, you mentioned attaching a curb, how would I do this? Would it just attach to the top hoops?
Click to expand...

Yes, as Ester's photo, I use a spur strap.

AAR said:
to attach a curb you can either buy/steal the hooks off a Pelham (very tricky, a strong man and pliers needed.)
Click to expand...

Don't do that.

ester said:
The important bit is more that it stops this happening:

When the rein is pulled back and up, the side piece is pulled forward and down. But since the side piece stops it from actually moving down, the pivotal point - the mouth piece will instead be pulled up, into the corner of the mouth, and against the teeth.'

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/tack/bridle.php#pessoa

It also means that you are applying curb pressure as well as poll pressure- I have never pulled really hard in it though! He isn't particularly strong most of the time just a darn site more spooky in his snaffle.
Click to expand...

I can never quite decide whether it is more true of a leverage bit or a gag - it depends how you use it - as leverage it should have a curb, and as a gag it should work on raising the head and work without a curb.

It does also depend how you set the bit up, if it is set too high there will be very little leverage anyway and more of a gag action, setting it lower in the mouth will give more leverage and allow it to work on more poll pressure.
 
My strong pony went brilliantly in a Kineton. He tended to try and get his tongue over the bit if he tried to tank and you got hold of him too tightly, but the Kineton stopped that and made him controllable.
 
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