Kineton noseband vs stronger bit

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nuttyarab

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I have a very strong sports horse, I have had him 6 months now and I seem to be trying correcting someone elses mistakes! he was ridden in gag when I brought him and I still use it for jumping.
I can now ride him in a wilkie snaffle for general schooling and steady hacking, however when it comes to jumping I dont think barbed wire would stop him!
What are peoples opinions on a Kineton noseband?
 
We're fans of this noseband - they're good for horses that pull and lean. My OH's horse hunts in a cherry roller Cheltenham gag with a kineton - he's VERY strong (and ignorant when he sets off!) despite being an educated ex event horse that works elem/medium at home!

Make sure you fit it correctly so it's not too low and restricting his breathing
 
I used one now and again for galloping racehorses and so that is my only knowledge which may or may not be of any use.

It let me take less hold and let pullers relax. The noseband can be very severe so of course care is needed in using it. The whole thing with galloping is letting that horse hit the right stride and to stay even going around while horse is relaxed and happy. Hard pullers are hard on themselves and you want them to relax while maintaining the purpose of the gallop. (called cantering here). So with this if the horse wanted to keep increasing speed and or dragging me, with this equipment it was easy to make small adjustments without a tug of war. Easy to take that one long hold and let them get into stride and be comfortable. If they tried anything they couldn't really avoid the bit per say as the nose pressure meant I had a bit more control with a simple light correction.

So try one and see what happens just remember it can be quite severe if you go pulling real hard. But I always viewed it as a tool that made things more pleasant for both of us! Sorry if I haven't explained very well.

Terri
 
Out of curiosity, why would you class it as 'very severe'. It holds the bit 'up' in the horse's mouth somewhat and spreads some of the pressure to the nose, similar to a combination bridle. Neither one of these actions should make it more hurtful to the horse if adjusted correctly.

It can be just the ticket for some hard pulling horses, and has the advantage of being usable with a bit that already works for the horse. Always worth a try.
 
I used one on my strong hunter, and it worked well. I like how you can adjust it so you can have more or less nosepressure v's bit pressure depending on how you fit it. So allows for a bit of play, and the combination of pressure without increasing bit severity. As above make sure you fit it correctly, I did have an older style one which has metal inset into the leather on the nose which I found worked far better than the one I had made which lacked this.
 
Severe as in anything in the wrong hands. If you exert enough pressure on the nose with it, it hurts. Sensitive area where it sits on the nose. And enough pressure also creates extreme force on the sides of the mouth. Just going by watching very insensitive riders using them with great force.

I suppose I don't like forcing anything. I barley use a noseband and never fig 8's and flashes. My horse's still work nice and in a frame. Much happier since I got rid of the extra equipment. My jumper goes in a noseband only for her shadow roll.

Look it's only my opinion. I'm not an expert. I just air on the side of caution when dispense information to people I don't know. As I wrote, I quite like the the thing because it's easier on the horse and myself. But how do I know what type of hands people have? If you try and manhandle one in a Kinenton you could have a worst case scenario on your hands. Horse takes off because it's now well and truly PO'd that you can't let up on his face. I agree with everyone that has posted here. Just putting that out there in case. I've witnessed the uglier side. That's all. Everything has good and bad points when talking control. Least I think it does.

Terri
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything, I was merely asking the rationale for assuming it works because it causes the horse more discomfort (on the sliding scale to pain). I totally agree, anything can be used harshly and giving advice over the internet is fraught at the best of times. I do think though, on the scale, if people are determined to 'go stronger' with their aids, a correctly fitted kineton is relatively horse friendly.

I actually renowned for taking nosebands off horses and interested in how often that alone makes an improvement. I wonder how often a kineton improves things precisely because, unlike many of the nosebands prescribed for strong horses, it doesn't hold the mouth closed.
 
Yeah funny how she hates most everything bit wise if you read the whole page. Here's the thing, I'm allowed to have an opinion on things that I've used and experienced even if I don't have a website. I've seen them used incorrectly. I've seen the sides of the mouth afterwards. And while that may be from the bit part of the equation, it was severe enough in this case. Since I got to get on a few of these horse's after their mouths were ripped to shreds, I can say that I did a darn good job of getting the horse happy and relaxed using the equipment correctly. Slag me if you must but I can gaurantee you I've been on numbers of horses with issues. Many I was good with, some not so good in which case my trainer would make a rider change because it was best for the horse. I simply said be careful as it can be severe from seeing it. I don't need to explain further but since it seems people assume I haven't a clue I apparently need to. Try not to make assumptions.

Terri
 
It's just a fleece piece over the noseband. My jumper just likes it and after previously having all sorts of gadgets on her by previous trainer to get her head down, which made her worse, this suits her. If they have a tendency to be high headed the shadow roll just changes the vision field. Thus head comes down and they work nicely in your hands. Yes I guess a gadget but one that let's me work independent of anything restrictive.

Terri
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Yeah funny how she hates most everything bit wise if you read the whole page. Here's the thing, I'm allowed to have an opinion on things that I've used and experienced even if I don't have a website. I've seen them used incorrectly. I've seen the sides of the mouth afterwards. And while that may be from the bit part of the equation, it was severe enough in this case. Since I got to get on a few of these horse's after their mouths were ripped to shreds, I can say that I did a darn good job of getting the horse happy and relaxed using the equipment correctly. Slag me if you must but I can gaurantee you I've been on numbers of horses with issues. Many I was good with, some not so good in which case my trainer would make a rider change because it was best for the horse. I simply said be careful as it can be severe from seeing it. I don't need to explain further but since it seems people assume I haven't a clue I apparently need to. Try not to make assumptions.

Terri
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Um, sorry, I can't see where I've slagged anyone or implied you don't know what you're talking about (to be fair, you don't know anything about me ;) ) or even disagreed that EVERY piece of equipment needs to be used with care and all advice offered over the internet needs to be fully qualified. I merely asked (politely) what people in general feel the reasoning is behind viewing the kineton as a particularly harsh piece of equipment relative to many of the other options commonly suggested for strong horses.

If you have seen a large number of horses' mouths injured by their use, then that is indeed proof.

My experience has been more that I've seen rubbing caused by kinetons that are not fitted well/covered safely and that this makes the horses LESS rideable. Hence my suggestion that fitting is very important. To be fair, I have probably not personally used it on more than a half a dozen horses and seen it used on about twice that many, so my sample size is not vast. I would say (again, my experience) is I haven't seen a higher incidence of horse's mouths/jaws/necks/backs injured by kinetons than by some of the more severe mouthpieces and leverage bits, so I might, personally suggest it to someone looking for a bit change from something fairly mild. That said, some horses REALLY don't like them so all the usual qualifiers about using then the first time in an enclosed space and not when it really matters!

The other option might be something like a nathe leverage bit or a short shanked Pelham with a leather curb strap, both of which add force without too much potential for injury.
 
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Nope I don't know you Tarr. And I also don't doubt that you know how to use one correctly as you've had good experiences. As I've said, I quite like it as when it is used correctly it is nicer for horse and rider. I just only added the little disclaimer as I don't know the person using it. As a matter of fact I'd go with a Kinenton before ever changing to a harsh bit because I do like how they function.

I can't do smiley faces from my phone but pretend you are viewing one now!

Terri
 
Thanks Terri - has given me food for thought - we have an extremely strong horse who is mainly strong because he carries his head so high - if we could keep his head down, then we could use a milder bit! We use a short standing martingale, but he tends to come up and behind it. Tried a market harborough and he broke it :(

TarrSteps - we've found that a Kineton in itself isn't strong, as it doesn't have any effect at all until the rider picks up the reins. My OH had a very strong horse a few years ago, who fought strong bits (made him worse than he was in the 1st place) He would wriggle like a landed salmon with a curb bit - making him very hard to stay on! He hunted in a sweet iron double jointed snaffle and a Kineton - he was a double handful, but had brakes!


OP - sorry to have hijacked your post!
 
I used one last season for hunting my strong little mare and initially it worked very well. However as time went on it became less and less effective so I have given up on it.

It shouldn't rub the sides of the mouth if fitted correctly ( as far as I'm aware ) but those rubber bit rings can be useful when using one.
 
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