kissing spine / gastric ulcers? HELP

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charlotte79

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ok so no one replied to my last thread i will try again. This is a fairly long story so i will try and make it as short as possible. I have had my 8 yr old mare for 3yrs and backed her myself. She never really put a foot wrong, she has always been very sensitive and gets wound up quite easily so i have to be quiet and patient with her. we have competed at local working hunters/dressage etc. About 6 months ago she started to get very tense when i mounted her, then when i would put my leg on she would bulk away from it quite sharpish, so i had my back lady out who said she was very tense in certain areas due to an ill fitting saddle. so i had one made especially for her as i have her for life. she had 10 weeks off being ridden whilst waiting for saddle and we just did lunging and natural stuff, all of which she seemed to enjoy. i started riding her again about 10 weeks ago and the tensness reappeared almost straight away. out on a hack she isn't too bad but will jump out her skin at anything and has got really scared of traffic. so decided to work with her in the arena, well she is almost unrideable...walk fine on a long rein quite happy, ask for trot and shes up like a giraffe and can hardly hold her, if i ask for a frame shes ears back and bobs her head up and down, as for canter well its like being on a kangeroo on the spot, if i put my leg on for her to bend around she shoots off sideways throwing her head up. also she has been disunited behind a bit lately, she snorts alot and her ears are back a fair bit and she just doesn't seem at all happy. now i know my mare and really think this is pain related as she always used to be a pleasure to ride, i've done the saddle bit, had her teeth done, my farrier is great, i've even tried a natural healer, she lives on a magnesium calmer and has half a cup of linseed a day with a handful of feed. i'm at my wits end as i love her so much but her outbursts are getting dangerous to us both. my trainer has suggested either ulcers or kissing spine both of which seem to cover her symptons. Really i am looking for any advice from anyone who has similar problems. My next route will be to get the vet out as i have tried everything i can think of. Many thanks
 
I cant help on the experience but it does sound like either KS or ulcers, and I think you are absolutely right to get the vet out, good luck!
 
I'd get the Vet out asap otherwise you're just going round in circles. As well as what you have mentioned it could be suspensory ligaments or other problems.
 
Having experienced both, it sounds more like kissing spines than ulcers. I would get her back xrayed. Will cost around the same amount as scoping for ulcers. I'm not saying it's not ulcers, just that it is more like what my boy with KS is like. The mare who had gastric ulcers here would nap, refuse to go forwards and keep looking at her sides, and almost try to bite your foot when you put the leg on.
 
Sounds like kissing spine to me too. A mare we owned is coming back to me with this condition. Some of her symptoms were like your mares, she even got to the point of not wanting to be caught from the field. Her owner had a Physio out, she found the painful area, saddle changed and no different, went to Horsepital, had xrays and kissing spine diagnosed. She was border line for surgery but they deferred as she also had hind leg problems, linked to the KS. Shes had injections into the soft tissue in the painful area, done lots of Pessoa work and started hacking in walk in a long and low frame. Vets were very pleased with her last Friday when she went for a check up. Her current owner wants her to come back to us and so she is after 4yrs away, so whether ridden or not she will stay with us until the end of her days.
 
i have a horse with kissing spine... diagnosed last august 2011, back competeing elementary now with 65% +..... so if it is dont dispair! the problem in my horse came apparent when he had a loaner for 6 weeks, riding 4 days a week. she caused enough damage by riding him incorrectly for 6 vertebrae to be found touching. we assume that he has always had ks, but by her style of riding she agrivated it.

my horse had similar symptoms, wouldnt canter and be disunited if he did. one canter lead was more difficult to get than the other, wouldnt come round, bronked regually and very short strides. he also became difficult to tack up (still can be!) and wouldnt be groomed.

he had 2 rounds of steroid injections and 3 loads of shockwave. at leat 8 months off ridden work.. but did 4 months of ground work while not riding... long and low streching, get him very relaxed. hes come back better than ever - starting medium soon!, but we do have to manage his 'condition'.

what ever your vet finds, make sure you know about ALL options, so you can make the best choice for your horse! so many different things that can be done, and after 3 years you know your horse best! good luck!
 
Hi,thought I would post a reply to this as I had almost the same symptoms when being ridden. My Wesh D suddenly started on the right rein only throwing his head up and shooting off to the left.It started on start of a circle to gradually even when we were going round corners.It was only ever on the right rein.I do dressage and at the same time his marks were starting to drop. We thought it could be his saddle as had recently got a new Dressage.Anyway to cut a long story short we put him back in his GP but still carried on.My trainer suggested getting the vet to check him as she had 2 horses over the years that had only shown signs of Gastric Ulcers by reacting on one rein.Vet checked him all over and we decided on 1weeks course GastroGuard to see if any change.Well he was like a different horse,settled and calm again and the shooting off stopped.After GG I put him on Ulcer-Calm by Feedmark and kept up his calmer supplement. Gave him some Hi-Fi before work etc and his marks came back up again.About a month ago the symptoms started again and we referred him to Liphook for a scope,he was found to have Grade 2-3 Squamous and Pyloric Ulcers.He is now on GastroGuard and also antibiotics for a month to try and settle the more nasty ulcers. I was so surprised as the only signs were the shooting off on one rein and he did not look as bright as always.
Sorry for the essay but hope this helps.
 
I thought my horse had ulcers, but it turned out to be KS.

In your position, if you think it may be either, I would ask the vet if you can take her in, and get her booked in for both procedures on the same day. (They have to be starved for a while with ulcers to get all the food out of their stomach; so I would be tempted to do the x-rays first, as I would guess this is less invasive than the ulcer scope.)
 
thanks to all yor replis, its made me feel a little better, shes such a good mare i hate to think i'm causing her more discomfort, will be ringing the vet on monday and discussing the best route, i think the both procedures in one day is a good option if xrays dont show anything then scope, i'm hoping that it still could be her just being a pillock as behavioural problems would be so much better than health problems but i think i know in my heart its more than that. FINGERS CROSSED and i'll keep this spot updated
 
Hi, it sounds like kissing spine or some other back issue to me. It doesn't sound like ulcers as she doesn't have a stressful life at the mo and isn't really being worked.
Our mare got kissing spine from her previous owner jumping her too much too young, we brought her as a companion. We were told she would rear up and buck on the spot if you get on her, and she started to refuse to be worked and jump which is how they found out.
If your horse is that bad to be ridden there is something definitely wrong and you need to take her for X-rays.
 
Hi there, your horse is seems to be behaving very similar to mine was earlier this year. He's always been 'special' bless him (sometimes cold backed and managed for suspected ulcers) but his behaviour escalated and I got the vet out. He went for back xrays and pelvic scans (both clear) but on the lameness workup was showing slight lameness right hind on a trot circle on hard ground. Hock xrays were taken and he has arthritis in both! Bi-lateral lameness can be really hard to detect and although I still had doubts about his back and/or pelvis for a while, it has been confirmed that all his discomfort in these areas is caused by him compensating for the hock issues.

I hope you soon get to the bottom of it - it took me a while but I'm looking forward to getting my lovely safe horse back in the not too distant future :-)
 
hi everyone, just a quick post to say i had the vet out today, one of the best in this part of the world (imho) peter green. He felt her back, saw her lunge and said she is suffering with some back problems, she is going in for xrays a week tomorrow, god i wish it was sooner as i really cant wait that long. its the front end base of neck, shoulder. not giving me a clue as to what it could be only that it could be one of about five things. i'm absolutely gutted:( just glad i noticed it so soon and that i understand my mare enough to know she was telling me she was hurting
 
my mare went for her xrays/scans today and the outcome is she has torn her supraspinous ligament just under where the saddle goes. the vet thinks she has had the injury a long long time as the ligament itself is so changed, so she has damaged an old injury. now she has had steroids injected and is being turned away for 4weeks to be scanned again. he said she has over a 50%chance of full recovery but at least she has a chance!!! i was just wondering if anyone knows of this type of injury and recovery prospect etc as it has thrown me completely! many thanks
 
Hi there, sorry I haven't any experience of your mares injury but I have seen other threads on here about it. Just wanted to say I'm glad you have a diagnosis so at least you know what your dealing with and wishing your girl a successful recovery. Good on you for listening to your horse :-)
 
Can I piggy back on this thread and ask if a horse with much less severe, but similar issues would be made worse by cold weather if he has kissing spines?

I think I can rule out ulcers because I have seen his behaviour with definite acid stomach issues and it was completely different. But he is bucking when I even touch his sides with my legs, and setting his back when I get on and refusing to canter without bucking, but only when the temperature is lower than normal. He does it less with a thermocell exercise blanket on and if lunged first, and he doesn't do it at all in summer but he did do it last winter as well. I can predict what he will be like from how cold the temperature is.

Clues anyone please???
 
Hi Charlotte
My mare had exactly the same injury a year ago now. She had 6 months off then lots and lots if hacking in a long rein. NO SCHOOLING!! Give her time and have patients. Didn't have steroid injections as the inhibit new cell repair. Acupuncture was good. Try not to think of an outline until she feels loose and relaxed and then do lots of short bursts of engaged work using her hind quarters but not being held by
your hand. Look at Gerd Heuschmans way, it's very enlightening!! Good luck :)
 
Hi CPT, sounds like your horse is really trying to tell you something.

I can only tell you my experience having 'managed' a cold backed horse for a while. In summer I could jump straight on and he would work really well and hack out on the buckle. In winter I had to lunge first or walk round for a while, tightening the girth up very slowly and then ride very tactfully at all times. I always thought it was the extra turnout in summer that made the difference but did have doubts about his back but he always responded well to physio. Fast forward to this year and with all the rain and boggy fields he's had less turnout than ever before, his behaviour escalated to dangerous and the vet was called. Turns out he has lots of different joint issues including both hocks and SI but his back is clear except for still going into spasm whenever he has a hooney in the field :-( his back pain is apparently due to compensating for discomfort in other areas.
Could your horse be experiencing arthritic changes somewhere? If he goes better after he 'loosens up' it could be a sign of stiffness elsewhere on starting work. I know from experience that its not an old wives tale that the cold can make joint pain worse but there is always an exception to the rule - I know of a horse that has arthritic hocks that are better in really icy cold weather!!
My only advise would be to get your vet to check his back and do a full lameness workup, for your own peace of mind as the OP did. A friend at the stables, who's horse showed similar behaviour, was diagnosed with hind foot imbalances but she pushed for back xrays which showed very mild KS. It has responded very well to shockwave therapy and is back in full work - without the amatuer dramatics!!!

Hope you soon get to the bottom of it - do we ever stop worrying about our flipping horses!!!
 
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