KISSING SPINE - INTERSPINOUS LIGAMENT DESMOTOMY

nbred

nbred

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Hi,

My horse had kissing spine surgery around 4 weeks ago (the new technique used at Cotts Equine). Has anyone else had this surgery? Would be interested to hear your stories.

thanks
 
Wagtail said:
No, my boy had the more traditional surgery at Rossdales. How is your horse getting on?
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Hi, I remember talking to you about it a while back when i was undecided. He seems to be doing really well. Tracking up much better and has lengthened his stride. We are about 4 weeks post op, i am going to get on him in about 5 weeks depending on the physios approval, the vet has already said i can get on him in 2 but i dont want to push it. Would rather get him strong ready. How is yours doing?x
 
That sounds fantastic. I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Sadly, although my horse now moves much better, he still has explosive reactions to the saddle or roller and so I have given up, finally. I am emotionally exhausted. He does not settle well to our winter routine here as we only turn out in the all weather for 3 hours a day. That's fine if a horse is laid back or in work, but he gets really excitable and squeals and bucks coming out of the stable and bounces all the way to the turnout. He gets worse as the winter goes on, bless him. I think therefore I will be sending him to the blood bank in the spring. I know it is something he would settle well into as they are turned out in huge herds in massive field in the summer. He would love that as he loves to play. In the winter they are house in huge barns but with space to interact and move about for a leg stretch. He is a vet's ideal horse as he is great with needles and so good to handle in the stable. All the vets love him. Anyway, I think I am going to do that rather than keep prodding and poking and trying over and over to ride him. I will miss him, but I think it's for the best.
 
Mine had the "standard proecure" - the tops of 3 vertebrae removed on the 20th of August and the swelling has mostly gone down; there is still a little bit of residual swelling. He is on box rest and being walked out twice a day (well the object is to walk, he just bounces and fly bucks around).

He is having his 3 month scan in 3 weeks to see if we can start lunging, however he has added complications as has PSD in hind legs so we are rehabbing two surgeries at the same time.

The new procedure wasnt even mentioned when my boy went to AHT; what exactly does it entail?

Sorry to hear about your boy Wagtail.
 
Hi my lad had a new procedure at Bushy Equine 3.5 weeks ago. He ha two processes touching and had the point of contact removed. He comes off Boxrest walking in hand a week on Friday then has 6 weeks working in a Pessoa plus turnout.
 
Wagtail said:
That sounds fantastic. I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Sadly, although my horse now moves much better, he still has explosive reactions to the saddle or roller and so I have given up, finally. I am emotionally exhausted. He does not settle well to our winter routine here as we only turn out in the all weather for 3 hours a day. That's fine if a horse is laid back or in work, but he gets really excitable and squeals and bucks coming out of the stable and bounces all the way to the turnout. He gets worse as the winter goes on, bless him. I think therefore I will be sending him to the blood bank in the spring. I know it is something he would settle well into as they are turned out in huge herds in massive field in the summer. He would love that as he loves to play. In the winter they are house in huge barns but with space to interact and move about for a leg stretch. He is a vet's ideal horse as he is great with needles and so good to handle in the stable. All the vets love him. Anyway, I think I am going to do that rather than keep prodding and poking and trying over and over to ride him. I will miss him, but I think it's for the best.
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Oh no, i am so sorry to hear that. Does the vet think its in his head or does he actually think he is in pain? sounds like you are doing the right thing for him x
 
Flibble said:
Hi my lad had a new procedure at Bushy Equine 3.5 weeks ago. He ha two processes touching and had the point of contact removed. He comes off Boxrest walking in hand a week on Friday then has 6 weeks working in a Pessoa plus turnout.
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HI, Did your boy actually have them removed or just the ligament cut? how is he?x
 
CBAnglo said:
Mine had the "standard proecure" - the tops of 3 vertebrae removed on the 20th of August and the swelling has mostly gone down; there is still a little bit of residual swelling. He is on box rest and being walked out twice a day (well the object is to walk, he just bounces and fly bucks around).

He is having his 3 month scan in 3 weeks to see if we can start lunging, however he has added complications as has PSD in hind legs so we are rehabbing two surgeries at the same time.

The new procedure wasnt even mentioned when my boy went to AHT; what exactly does it entail?

Sorry to hear about your boy Wagtail.
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Hi, my friend had her horse operated on at Rossdales 4 weeks ago and they didnt offer the new surgery either. Basically its a less invasive surgery but they do not remove the vertebraes they cut the ligament over the top which allows the spine to relax and for the spaces to widen, heres a good link http://www.cottsequine.co.uk/wccms-resources/8/0/6/8/81642ebc-4aca-11e1-a685-0050568626ea.pdf
 
I was very interested to read your original post about this type of KS op. Would you mind saying how much the op was? (PM me if necessary). I had a mare diagnosed a couple of years ago but ins. company refused to pay for an op. for various stupid reasons. She is a beautiful field ornament at the moment, but if there is a chance I could have treatment now I would take it.

Really glad to hear how well your horse is doing.
 
Tammytoo said:
I was very interested to read your original post about this type of KS op. Would you mind saying how much the op was? (PM me if necessary). I had a mare diagnosed a couple of years ago but ins. company refused to pay for an op. for various stupid reasons. She is a beautiful field ornament at the moment, but if there is a chance I could have treatment now I would take it.

Really glad to hear how well your horse is doing.
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Hi, sorry its taken me a while to get back to you. The op cost £1,000 which i thought was great seeing as the traditional op was anywhere between 3-5k. Luckily my insurance paid out but it may be worth a go with your mare, the recovery rate is quite high x
 
Nbred how is it horse now? Mine has had gets this morning - I am going to see her this afternoon he has operated on 9 processes - travelling her home tomorrow as 5 hr journey
 
nbred said:
Hi, sorry its taken me a while to get back to you. The op cost £1,000 which i thought was great seeing as the traditional op was anywhere between 3-5k. Luckily my insurance paid out but it may be worth a go with your mare, the recovery rate is quite high x
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Thankyou!

How is your horse doing?
 
nbred said:
Hi,

My horse had kissing spine surgery around 4 weeks ago (the new technique used at Cotts Equine). Has anyone else had this surgery? Would be interested to hear your stories.

thanks
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nbred.....

I am very interested to hear how your horse is getting on.

My new boy, who was bought to event, is showing some characteristics of back pain and possible kissing spines which I want investigated as I don't think the current approach advocated by the vet has fully addressed what's going on.

If it does turn out he does have kissing spines I am very interested to hear about your experience of the desmotomy.

Certainly the research [carried out by Richard and others and published] is very encouraging as it states that:

"Horses having ISLD were 24 times more likely to experience long-term resolution of signs of back pain (OR 24; 95%CI: 5-115; P = <.0001). Repeat radiographs in 19 surgical cases indicated that interspinous spaces widened significantly postoperatively (P = <.0001).
CONCLUSIONS: This surgical technique allowed horses with back pain and radiographic ORDSP to return to work without further clinical signs of back pain and to show radiographic evidence of improvement."

Just a quick question......is it worth taking my boy up to Pembrokeshire for a diagnosis - as it may not be KS? Do they have adequate equipment? Langford is right on my doorstep and I am considering taking him there but they obviously don't do this procedure.

Best wishes, Tonks.
 
my girl had the op 5 days ago, is walking so much more freely already. As long as you can go somewhere local for xrays you can have them sent to Cotts via email if its a long way as was a 5 hr journey for me.
 
kezimac said:
my girl had the op 5 days ago, is walking so much more freely already. As long as you can go somewhere local for xrays you can have them sent to Cotts via email if its a long way as was a 5 hr journey for me.
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That's very interesting to know.

I have a 3 year old son and a yard full of horses so I would find it extremely difficult to get away.

So, if I can organise some diagnostics here, locally, I can send all info to Cotts and they organise the procedure?

How long is the horse stabled with them after the procedure? Am I looking at an overnight stay?

I don't as yet know that my horse has KS - but he is showing some characteristics (disunited in left canter at liberty and under saddle, some bucking, mild bronxing, back soreness - his behaviour is mild and is not throwing himself to the floor etc, but he is a bit grumpy when the saddle is done up) enough for me to want to investigate with a set of back radiographs, etc.

Thank you.
 
Tonks said:
That's very interesting to know.

I have a 3 year old son and a yard full of horses so I would find it extremely difficult to get away.

So, if I can organise some diagnostics here, locally, I can send all info to Cotts and they organise the procedure?

How long is the horse stabled with them after the procedure? Am I looking at an overnight stay?

I don't as yet know that my horse has KS - but he is showing some characteristics (disunited in left canter at liberty and under saddle, some bucking, mild bronxing, back soreness - his behaviour is mild and is not throwing himself to the floor etc, but he is a bit grumpy when the saddle is done up) enough for me to want to investigate with a set of back radiographs, etc.

Thank you.
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well mine has 9 impinging processes - never once bucked, never went disunited, never reared, just sore over back and grumpy to tack up. I just had a feeling and wasnt expecting 9 !!!!

Due to the distance we went the night before and travelled back the day after. If within 2 hrs you can go and leave same day! its done under standing sedation. rehab afterwards is box rest 2-3 weeks, with 30 mins twice a day hand walking, then after 3 weeks introduce pessoa when walking, and turnout then lunging and back on in 6-8 weeks.
 
for those who want to know what it looks like after the operation (this was done last tues and bandage fell off today - stitches due out on fri)

aoifespinedec3.jpg


she had 9 processes cut
 
Looks to be healing really nicely.

What does Richard say about prognosis?

Is prognosis dependent upon how many spinal processes were affected?

Does he argue that his procedure is more effective than more traditional surgery routes?

Would be very interested to know.

I will take my boy along to Langford as they have a suite of diagnostic equipment and then if it does turn out to be KS I will take him up to Cotts.

It's a real hike for me [as it is everyone else, I guess] but it certainly sounds like the best option - minimally invasive with a better outcome!!

Best of luck, and PLEASE keep me posted as to your horse's progress.

Best wishes,
 
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Tonks said:
Looks to be healing really nicely.

What does Richard say about prognosis?

Is prognosis dependent upon how many spinal processes were affected?

Does he argue that his procedure is more effective than more traditional surgery routes?

Would be very interested to know.

I will take my boy along to Langford as they have a suite of diagnostic equipment and then if it does turn out to be KS I will take him up to Cotts.

It's a real hike for me [as it is everyone else, I guess] but it certainly sounds like the best option - minimally invasive with a better outcome!!

Best of luck, and PLEASE keep me posted as to your horse's progress.

Best wishes,
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yes wound looks fab, there is low risk of infection with this op.
I dont think it matters how many affected - I would prob say more likely to get other problems if you had less affected (my horse is also sore over SI joint and richard did say before he operated that in 6-8 weeks we should see how the Sacroilliac is and if needed it should have a steroid injection - the soreness may have been caused by so many processes being affected OR it could have been the original problem - will only find out once done the rehab bit)

he says that the cutting of the nerve is what takes the pain away and by cutting the ligament and opening the space up in between does the job just as good without taking away bone. I would not have had the traditional route as its usually done under GA and then 3 months box rest which mine certainly would not have put up with.
And i like the fact that its a keyhole procedure with alot less risks, but all the benefits.

Yes it is far to travel - I actually went to Svend Kold to have mine diagnosed, but didnt want him to do traditional surgery so got her referred to cotts.

Its well worth the travel in my opinion and you can always leave them there longer if you wanted to go home and come back to pick up (I stayed in bed and breakfast for two nights)
 
Long time lurker here :)

My horse had this surgery at the start of September, so is now at the stage of being ridden. The difference in his back is amazing. His muscled are actually soft! before they were so tight and hard. He is also much happier in himself.

He was re X-rayed before we started ridden work and the amount his processes had sprung was incredible.

He is much better ridden now and I am building him up slowly. He still has moments where he gets very tense when being ridden but I think he still has a lot of negative feelings/memories of being ridden as it would have been sore for a while before it was diagnosed.

Looking at his back you can't tell he has had anything done and can only feel a little bit of scarring where he had the incisions.

Hope this is of some help to people going through the same thing.
 
So pleased to be seeing positive things about KS surgery. My horse 's xrays came out clear, he has arthritis in is neck instead, but I was turned inside out worrying about it. Seems there are some good solutions for you guys
 
Seeing everyone else's photos, makes me really wish that this option had been presented to me. My boy was seen by Sue Dyson who I trust 100% and she has been my lameness vet for years but I so wish this thread had been started before August.

Its not the time off work or the boxrest its just the pain that I had to put him through - my boy's back was severely swollen (I mean, his withers were twice the normal length) and he was in a lot of pain for a long period of time which he might have been spared if we had gone down this route.

ETA: mine had his KS surgery on 20th August and it will be another 3 months before we even get a saddle on him, let alone ridden work. So that will be 6 months off post surgery.
 
I'm sorry to hear that about your horse CBAnglo. I know a lot of horses who have had the 'traditonal' surgery who are now back in work, but it does seem so much more invasive which is what appealed about this surgery.

I guess it is still very early days to see the long term results/effects but hopefully they are positive so it is option that is available instead of the more invasive route.
 
Following this thread with much interest as my horse had the traditional surgery 3 weeks ago. I've been extremely lucky, little swelling, no infection, no GA as done under standing sedation. Even better only two weeks solid box rest. Would love to hear how the desmotomy horses are getting on though their rehab compared to my horse...
 
Thank you for pointing the way to this thread.

I hope everyone's horses recover well. In waiting to hear back from my vet who is sending mares X-rays off to Ian wright at Newmarket. She has four dorsal fused vertebrae and four that are going to fuse/kiss soon.

Worried about the time she would spend on box rest as althought she is a fab little mare she likes her turnout and can get stressy if left in on her own.
 
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