Kissing spine? Long post and a few questions......

[georgiegirl2]

Hi all,

Sorry for the long post but i think a bit of background information may help!

I have owned george sine he was 4 he is now 13. As a youngster he was the usual nappy / bucky young horse and has always been a little bit neurotic. We have evented him up to novice and sj to newcomers up until a few years ago. Out of the blue he began broncing on landing from fences VERY violently. We went down every avenue, physio, saddler, farrier and vet. The vet detected mild changes in his hock and said it was a mild hock spavin (after nerve blocking it turned out george was actually lame on all 4 feet and so appeared 'sound') He went through the full works, box rest, 3 sets of injectiopns to the joint etc and became sound. However we never completely erradicated the broncing on landing - and its not even when he is feeling fresh it has happened on some of his laziest days too. It doesnt happen over every fence only every once in a while. We have never competed up to the same level since but it is still happening and has recently happened with a lot more regularity recently. He even had a violent fit out on the road the other week with mum on him. There was nothing to spook him, he was calm and she was riding him leaving his head alone and not doing anything which would wind him up. heidi simmons who has instructed us in the past commmented she thinks kissing spine could be a real possibility? Just wondering what other peoples thoughts are? I would hate to think he is in pain and his outbursts are so violent i know at some point either my mum or myself will end up getting seriously hurt. Just a couple of weeks ago he did it twice when warming up a competition really messing my shoulder up - needless to say we didnt jump and dont intend on doing so in the future. Sop what are peoples thoughts? How are kissing spines diagnosed? Are they covered by insurance policies?

Sorry for the long post - i am at my wits end as to what to do with him

 

[dozzie]

Yes it could be and would be worth investigating. My horse has sacroiliac injury/disease and showed all the symptoms of kissing spine. As hes 13 get it looked into now as he will be covered by vets insurance if you havent changed company and are with a good company. I'd speak to your vet first. My horse is 13 and Im with SEIB and they have as yet honoured every payment. The last symptom we are left with is spooking at present, and I know what you mean. We are not talking mild spooking here!!

ETA Kissing spines can be identified by xray and sacroiliac strain by scintigraphy(more expensive but will also diagnose kissing spine- I think!)

Im going offline now but if you want more info on symptoms pm me! Once you know all the symptoms it can all fall in or out of place!!!

 

[Bert&Maud]

The symptoms and behaviour of horses with kissing spines varies. I have been unfortunate enough to have two horses with the condition. The first came to me with a reputation for being "a bit cold backed". He was never any problem apart from when you very first got on him, he would take one or two tentative steps and then explode into a bronco routine which nobody could stay on - this didn't happen every time, he always seemed to be worse when the grass was in full growth in spring and autumn, we reckoned it made him more sensitive. He had surgery at 14 years old and I had him until he was 25, but you always had to be very careful when you first got on him. My current horse who I have had for 4 years has always had a tendency to be hollow until he has worked in fully, and when I first had him the massage therapist that I use said that she suspected he may have KS. However, apart from his hollowness he had no other outward problems and so I worked him normally with success at novice/elementary level dressage. However, last summer he suddenly (literally overnight) started to find right canter very difficult, he would curl up round my inside leg, swish his tail and try anything to evade my aids. After checks by saddler, dentist etc the vet finally took him in for x-ray and he was found to have KS from his wither backwards in 5 vertebrae. He has had treatment with Tildren which was unsuccesful and is now looking for a home to hack out as he is still fine to hack, but can no longer do circles. My previous horses operation and the current one's treatment was paid for with no questions asked by my insurance companies. My understanding is that the condition can only be identified with x-ray, and sometimes scanning as well. Hope this helps.

 

[vhf]

I read a report recently (on web, can't remember where!) that said something like on post mortem examination, 80% of horses had some level of "kissing spines". These weren't horses that had been diagnosed as having problems in that area. Which would suggest that it's actually quite lucky if a horse doesn't eventually start to suffer the physical signs of it.
Short answer, get it checked out and do some googling!

 

[seabiscuit]

Surely your vet shouldve x rayed his back by now? just seems odd when you say that youve explored every avenue with your vet etc that he did not want to do a back x ray and the horse has carried on suffering. Its easily diagnosed by a simple x ray. Does sound like he could have a problem in the back.

 

[georgiegirl2]

well i think at the time we started off exploring his legs as he turned out to be lame on all 4 feet so actually 'appeared sound' if that makes sense. After various nerve blocks in his legs and x rays out vet put it down to the changes in his hock and the treatment went from there, there wasnt any talk of his back at the time and so we accepted what the x-rays had shown and what the vet said.

Its so difficult to descibehow he is and for a long long time we have assumed he is being naughty as the outbursts were so infrequent.

Have spoken to the vet today, he think it could well be hock pain coming back as it was 2 years ago since they were last injected although he does think back pain could be a possibility or could be caused by the hock pain and george is compensating for this. although reading around it does seem back pain and hock pain go hand in hand. Were due to go to the vets on tuesday so we shall see what the findings are then

 

[BethH]

Hopefully it is something minor but if you want to know more, please look at my Kissing spine posts from last June/July, my horse has been through behaviour so bad that without surgery my vet was happy to write to my insurers saying the only other option was to be PTS. The explosions from out of nowhere could be many things, but in my opinion are typical of Kissing spines in some (and I stress some) horses and certainly it was this unpredictibility that made all the difference to feeling that I was struggling to tackle it. With KS, it is the definite feeling of not knowing where your horse is going to end up because it is almost like they are in a blind panic. My horse was bi-laterally lame so took 2 years to diagnose as he appeared on and off sound.

In many cases correct long and low outline strengthens the back muscles to support the weakness but what many people don't realise is that the back can continue to deteriorate and sometimes surgery is the only way to correct things, because they can't life and flex their backs, this is why they struggle to get power in the back end and struggle with canter, quite often they also have a stiff trot.

Although I thought it was the end of the world to have this diagnosed, the paliative route i.e., correct work after the back has been anaesthetised can work for many people unfortunately not for my horse. I have had superb help from my vet, surgeon and physio who i am happy to recommend if you want to pm me. After a long hard road to find out the problem and to deal with the op and rehab, Ryan is being ridden 5-6 days a week, has been out to his first 2 shows this month and done prelim and novice dressage and he has been given the all clear by my vet to start jumping as long as we build him up slowly.

I cannot believe how well my horse has coped with the whole situation and am so glad I persevered. The best thing you can do is to get the back X-rayed, hopefully this is inexpensive and will give you some answers but you may need scintigraphy which is horribly expensive but your insurers should pay. The palliative route is reasonable cheap and because of the way my surgeon operated I also thought the surgery was very reasonable.

All I would say is don't panic, get it investigated and if it is KS feel free to contact me for any advice, they really can sort out so many problems these days I am sure it will get solved for you

 

[spike123]

Have you had a chiropractor/physio out to take a look at him.What happens alot with horses is where they are sore elsewhere they tense up and this causes pain in their backs.Could it be possible that it is muscular rather than a bone problem.

 

[kerilli]

i had a horse with kissing spines, years ago. diagnosed by an x-ray, operated on and cured. box rest for a few months iirc, but his violent bucking was a thing of the past... unfortunately, then a few months later he broke his pedal bone out in the field...

( just a very unlucky horse.
i'd ask your vet if you could get the x-rays done on the insurance, and go from there maybe.
my first action, personally, would be to get a very very good McTimoney Chiropractor, but i know you've said you've already tried a lot of things.
I think i'd give him a holiday until i knew what was going on though. not worth further injury if his bucking's that violent.
hope it works out okay. good luck.

 

[monica987]

My mare had kissing spine. She flybucked and bronced seriously when cantered in a open space. Some days she would jump fine, other she would refuse point blank to jump a x - pole. We then had her back x-rayed and it showed 9 Kissing Spines

 

[debradley]

I would say it's definately worth getting the proper diagnoses. My horse was diagnosed with KS in April this year and is now in week 12 after surgery and doing great. Beth H is the font of all knowledge and a great support on this. Honey displayed very similar symptoms as well as numerous little, as it was put to me "Bad Mannered" manerisms and it took probably two years to get to the proper route of the problem ie KS!! My insurance has covered it - x-rays surgery as post-operative care physio etc - thank god!! PM me if you need any pointers.