Kissing spine post op - symptoms recurring

Sammyf

Sammyf

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Hello my friends horse who I ride had the kissing spine operation around eight months ago and was brought back into work under vets recommendations (lunging, pessoa etc) and within a few months was back to himself and was an absolute angel to ride. He went on loan for around two months and she has got him back due to him starting to buck again. She asked me to ride him again because he bucked her off and was just being out of character. I rode him and he seems completely backward in himself. He used to be a complete push-button and excelled at dressage but now it feels like i'm riding a lazy horse who is fighting against anything. I didn't try to push him into canter because he wasn't balanced enough in trot and was really uncomfortable but I don't understand how just two months can make a horse deteriate in such a way. I've been lunging him in his pessoa again and he seems to be carrying himself really high in a way to avoid stretching out his back. A girl tried him out today to have him on loan and he had his head between his legs bucking, ears flat back.

In my opinion she needs the vet out again because it's not fair to keep asking when he's obviously in pain again.

Has anyone has any similar experiences?
 
My mare had the KS Op to remove one process in September 2007; we then did the 3 months of rehab, walking in hand and pessoa work which progressed up to 40 minutes a day at the end of the 3 months. On Christmas Day 2007 i sat on her for the first time and from that day up until the 30th March 2008 she was a different horse (I had only worked on her flatwork, no jumping).

After the 30th March she was back to sqaure one and almost worse. She was very backward, reluctant to go forard, would twist her head up and try to hold her neck almost verticle, buck, rear.... My trianer at the time told me to work her trough it and when I said no she got on and tried (I was in tears at this stage...needless to say, end of relationship with said instructor for I knew my horse and knew there was something badly wrong again).

Took her for an examination at the vets where they found she had 6 holes in her supraspinous ligament around the op sight - she then had until February 2010 off work, durng the time we bred form her, hoping this would help her back - release of hormones etc!

She came back in to work and was signed off fully sound and fit in Feb 2010. She competed and won Dressage, XC schooled etc and was my old horse again for 5 months. She lasted until July 2010 whereupon everythign got worse and worse again to the point where there was nothing left we could do.

That was my experience of KS recovery... I hope there is a better prognosis for your friends horse!

NB: she had full phsyio etc throughout the months she was first ridden and again in 2010 when she was back being ridden again. I honestly don't know how she went from a picture of health to the state she was in in July 2010 - I can only think she loved working so much she did so until she couldn't anymore.
 
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Thank you for this. It's just frustrating when one day they're perfect again and then the next they're completely backward and you're back to square one. I think she's holding off the vet because she doesn't like to accept there's a problem but we need to know because it's not fair on him! He did seem to improve after a took him back to basics but it's so hard when i'm doing all the work then she lets complete strangers ride him who don't understand him. I would consider just having him so he can get the care he obviously needs.

See he only bucks in canter (at the moment) but just will not go forward and completely ignores any aids given to him when ridden in the school. When we're out he does seem more relaxed and will walk out.

Does physio help at all?
 
That sounds very similar; my mare wouldn't buck unless in canter and she would have a tendency to bunny hop behind, changing legs. She could however walk out on a hack and be ok, that said, she couldn’t do this in July 2010. My personal experience is that physio, although it relieved the pain momentarily, it did not solve the problem for as soon as you got back on her you were back at square one. My physio saw her regularly and i didn't find it did anything more than make her comfortable.

Thinking about it, she also turned in to a evil b**ch (something she definitely was not, ever) when you put her rugs on or went to move them - is your friends horse like this? Just another sign that the pain is in their back.

The other thing I found was that the ligament damage also had knock-on effects and caused irreparable damage to her SI joint in time :(

My best advice would be to bite your lip and take him back to the vets for a scan. Things might have advanced since 2007 so there might be a few more options available. I know my mare had a steroid injection in her back and SI joint, but neither helped. If you leave it too long they will start to compensate and with that along come other issues.
 
He's fine putting his rugs on and things like that but obviously isn't comfortable when he knows a saddle is coming (it has all been fitted).

I've just spoken to her and she wants to sell him to me for £800. I'm going to ring my vet first and see what she advises. He is a gorgeous horse and tbh, he does seem to be better when I ride him to anyone else - he seems to have clicked with me so we'll have to see.
 
Seriously?????!!!

So she wants to sell you a horse which will be uninsurable for back problems, who is currently unsound and bucking people off?

Personally, I'd walk away from the horse, and I'd probably walk away from the "friend" too!

My interpretation is that she has an unridable horse, whose operation has been unsuccessful and for whom any insurance timescale will be running out very shortly. Sounds like she is just trying to pass the liability on to someone else and isn't looking to fulfill her responsibility to look after her own horse in the best way that she is able, whether that is to pursue treatment, or consider whether being a paddock ornament is appropriate or pts.

Sorry to be blunt, but this is the kind of thing you deal with if it's your own horse, you support a friend if it's their horse........... but if you take on this problem as your own it will inevitably incur large financial costs and heartbreak.

Meant with the best intentions, but probably comes across rather blunter than I mean it to. I just get so cross with owners who don't take responsibility, and then try and pass on their problems to other people, whether friends or strangers.

Hope the horse has a painfree outcome, whatever happens.

Sarah
 
No, I completely agree with you. I personally think if i'm taking on the responsibility he should be given to me seeing as I do a lot of the work with him anyway and have been looking after him because she can't be bothered. He's a 17hh dutch warmblood so he does take some looking after too.

I'm speaking to my vet later and see what she says, otherwise he'll be off to a dealer by the looks of things which is a shame because he's such a sweet horse.
 
I think it is really, really sad that he will be sent to a dealer. If he has physical problems that can't be sorted, why doesn't she take responsibility for it ?
 
It's like if she doesn't think about or have to deal with it then it isn't there and she can just ignore it. She isn't the easiest of characters
 
That is such a shame!!!

I whole-heartedly agree with flintfootfilly about your friend wanting to sell him to you, let alone for £800 :eek:

When my mare was in the window of good health (February - June last year) I had decided to maybe put her out on loan whilst I consentrated on my other horse. I had a girl come to try her on the recommendation with my trainer and thank god the circumstances for my other horse changed and she went lame and I decided to keep her rather than loan her. Knowing what eventually happened to her a few months down the line I could not live with myself if I'd have loaned her to someone who would have just pushed and pushed her. She was PTS in August and it was the last thing remaining we could do for her.

Be careful with purchasing him - all the work my mare had cost over £5000, the op was only £700. He obviously will, like flintfootfilly said, be coming towards the end of the insurance period, if he hasn't already used up all the money. The costs will all then be yours - my last bill for a final assessment and PTS was £1200, this is why I say be careful... We all want to help the horses we care for, but sometimes we can't... and those that just want to pass them on shouldn't be allowed to keep horses :(

I wish you all the best with him, at least your heart is in the right place as far as this horse is concerned.
 
I've asked her if I can have him on full permanent loan just so I can try and get him back up without her putting random people on him and me forking out money to purchase him. I'll just go back to complete basics with him like I did after the operation. Fingers crossed she lets me.
 
Very interesting post.

I am so sad to read that your friend just wants to pass this horse on to a dealer, quite possibly the worst hands he could go into.

Sammyf- I really hope that you can encourage your friend to let you take on the horse, as you are aware of his conditions and history. You would be sensible to speak to your vet as well before you do so. I am in the process myself of rehab-ing a KS horse, he is in his 4th week on the pessoa since having his back medicated, he had a large amount of muscle loss behind the saddle and no strength at all, but already my vet can see a huge difference, I will try to post up some pictures later.

The pessoa, if used correctly is a fantastic thing, I started off with it very loose and gradually started to tighten it more, building in transitions to his work to re-establish his balance, rhythm and to use his hocks properly again (unfortunately he also has bi-lateral bone spavin) as you may be well aware, often these 2 conditions go hand in hand...this could be something to consider with your friends horse.

I hope that you can work things out, please keep us updated.
 
Hi, I just read your post and was horrified, as the owner of a KS horse that I chose to have operated on and having given blood, sweat and many tears to ensure a good outcome, my little horse and I are now very successfully 5yrs on post op and he is doing very well despite the huge mental issues we had to overcome and that fact that he is incredibly over sensitive (probably because being in pain wasn't a good experience for him!).

Just a couple of things come to mind apart from thank god he has someone helping him with some common sense! Firstly, back to basics is absolutely the right thing, just be careful that if you fix him he doesn't then come to you at a much higher price, free seems a good deal to me as you are taking on a risk that he may have been damaged in other areas by his way of going over the last year and pre op, I would get a full check of ligaments and limbs by a vet and also a really good chiro/body worker to check him over (don't allow a chiro to throw him tho, just gentle manipulation). My guess is that the loaner was not a good rider and did not ensure he was working his muscles correctly or they pushed to hard too quickly, that could easily cause him to have weakened as 8mths on from that type of operation is not a huge amount of time to get him really strong especially if not ridden and ground worked properly.

Secondly, the reason my horse has been such a success is that I took a really long time to get a good walk that was calm with a correct overreach not just achieved by him rushing forwards faster and then the same with the trot to the point he was tracking up, this allowed him to carry himself more easily in the canter as he had learned to stretch and use his back. Long reining was better than any gadget to achieve this, my horse wouldn't tolerate a pessoa and I found ways of using the long reins that achieved just as good a result without tying him down, I find KS horses can be a bit claustrophobic and it makes them panicky.

Thirdly I got a sympathetic trainer who specialised in classical dressage (not the nasty modern heavy handed dressage you see so much of today) to take him through a gradual fittening/strengthening process and funnily enough it taught me to ride a lot better too which has benefitted us both. Have a look at the "TTT" website (Training teachers of tomorrow) all of my instructors have had some training there.

Sorry, this post had gone on for longer than I intended, lastly just to say well done to you for understanding the horse is unhappy. He is probably very worried by all that has happened to him, it sounds as though he is starting to trust you and I would be thrilled to hear that you manage to work through this as a team together, please pm me if you want any info, my horse really has thrown the book at me on this one so I've got the T shirt so to speak!
 
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Thank you all so much for your replies. I have him from today for a month to see if I can get him back at all. For this week I'm just going to purely hack him to let him chill out a bit, he seems to be getting so uptight up the school which isn't helping him at all.

I will definitely look into getting a trainer so there's someone on the ground who can see exactly where he's moving from. When I first had him I didn't canter him for a month or so, we just purely worked it walk and trot and he was moving forward and so collected that when I finally asked him to canter we had no problems at all. Everyone that his owner has let ride him tries to canter him up the cornfields etc! He's not exactly a little pony who can be bombed around and he is so sensitive with people he doesn't know.

I am going to get my physio down just to have a check over him to see if she can see anything that's going on as she is always a trainer who specialises in the way the horse moves when ridden which should be good for him.

I will keep you posted on how we get on!
 
Just a quick update. Over the past week we have been mainly hacking with a few lunging sessions in between. I took him into the school today for the first time and we were trotting fully collected and relaxed and completely responsive - the complete opposite to what he was the other week! Fingers crossed we just keep improving :)

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=2386&pictureid=12892

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=2386&pictureid=12894

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/album.php?albumid=2386&pictureid=12893
 
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