Kissing Spines update - bad news

Wagtail

Wagtail

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After making a spectacular recovery from his KS operation and after a return to riding my lovely boy, we are sadly back to square one. He started head tossing. This was 'cured' by my chiro and he was looking fab again. Tacked him up this morning and he flipped. Reared, broke string and bronked round yard. His body was in complete spasm, just like before the op. His terrible shooting pain is back. I am gutted. Will give him the summer, and try one more time in the Autumn, but then, if the vets say he is in pain, will PTS. Need to speak with the vets at Rossdales first though, and of course, check he is not in pain whilst not being worked. I guess I am back to my two field ornaments now. Problem is, he needs to be worked or he becomes such a handful. But I can't work him because I can't saddle him and I can't expect him to lunge when he is like he is. It's just such a big shame. Such a lovely boy.
 
Thanks. I feel so negative at the moment. It's like I'm fighting something I just cannot see. His pain is exactly as it was before the surgery. I am just struggling to understand why that would be.
 
I am sorry, it was sounding so positive and seemed that you were getting your horse back.

It may be just a set back, a twinge then remembered pain causing the violent reaction, then muscles going into spasm almost like shock, I would get the physio to look again, he may need more regular treatments for a while longer.

Have you changed his saddle recently, as he builds up you may have to make many changes to accommodate his muscle build up, you probably know that already but a tiny adjustment could be all that is needed.
 
Thanks. No, saddle etc all been checked regularly. I'm afraid there was no mistaking the reaction. It was exactly back to how he was before. He is such an honest horse and only ever reacts to actual pain. Immediately the pain goes he is fine. He banged his poll once and I could not bridle him. Then as soon as the poll was okay he was fine again, no remembered pain. The same thing happened recently when he got excited when being turned out and snatched away befor I could fully undo the head collar. His nose was sore for a few days and we couldn't get a head collar on him, but again he's fine again now. I can only think the same nerve(s) that were causing the pain before are being pinched or inflamed again. I have heard of this happening before after KS surgery. Inbetween where the spines were removed gets filled in with a cartilage type tissue. This can end up pinching the same nerves as the bone did. I feel so low now though that I just don't have the heart to try again. I worked so damned hard. I lost my lovely boy to colic 3 years ago, then my darling mare was injured so she had to retire, now this.
 
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Oh so sorry to hear this Wagtail, how disappointing. :( You've probably already ruled this out but I'll mention it in case you haven't since having found the KS. A lot of horses with tacking/girthing/mounting violent reactions have pain in the muscles which run in between the front legs, usually due to compensating for foot pain. Worth checking before you give up if you've not already, but take care of yourself working with him if he's so reactive.
 
oh no, how completely devastating. Look wait to see what vets say first.
Mine has 8 touching and am not sure which way to go regarding surgery yet. she goes back next week to see svend and am just a bit concerned about surgery, but then also concerned about only having injections and then once insurance has gone what we do if all goes wrong.
I also think mine may have Sacro illiac issue too now so really in a tiz.

So sorry for you - its such hard work isnt it rehabilitating them and also a complete and utter emotional rollercoaster.
 
We had a mare that had a kissing spine op in 1997 when they were relatively new ops, before the op she was violent, rear plunge buck and bolt, she was totally terrifying to ride and was a very big girl she could plunge half the length of the school in one leap.

Those days the answer was to turn away for 6 months, then bring back in on the pessoa then ridden, the first day with a rider on board was bad if not worse than before the op, totally violent to the point of throwing herself on the floor, however on vets recommendations we started her as though she had never been backed and it was totally memory, the pain was so severe before the op she just protecting herself it took 18 months to get her rideable again, weeks and weeks of just putting the saddle on then weeks of leaning a rider over, but eventually she did relax her body and importantly her back and realised it no longer hurt.

She was also one that never showed any memory of pain before this, she had major joint infection (and surgery), fractured shoulder, and a broken jaw prior , and took everything in her stride, I hope your boy is like her and the memory is soo bad he is not prepared to even entertain the idea it may not hurt.

Have everything crossed that his pain was so severe he isnt prepared at the moment to give you the benefit of the doubt that it may not hurt.
 
scally said:
We had a mare that had a kissing spine op in 1997 when they were relatively new ops, before the op she was violent, rear plunge buck and bolt, she was totally terrifying to ride and was a very big girl she could plunge half the length of the school in one leap.

Those days the answer was to turn away for 6 months, then bring back in on the pessoa then ridden, the first day with a rider on board was bad if not worse than before the op, totally violent to the point of throwing herself on the floor, however on vets recommendations we started her as though she had never been backed and it was totally memory, the pain was so severe before the op she just protecting herself it took 18 months to get her rideable again, weeks and weeks of just putting the saddle on then weeks of leaning a rider over, but eventually she did relax her body and importantly her back and realised it no longer hurt.

She was also one that never showed any memory of pain before this, she had major joint infection (and surgery), fractured shoulder, and a broken jaw prior , and took everything in her stride, I hope your boy is like her and the memory is soo bad he is not prepared to even entertain the idea it may not hurt.

Have everything crossed that his pain was so severe he isnt prepared at the moment to give you the benefit of the doubt that it may not hurt.
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It's just so odd because I had been riding him no problem. He was going so well. I was able to girth him up whilst he was tied up (which I could never do before the op). So it was like the pain was all gone. I must admit that yesterday, because he had been so non plussed by all the tacking up for the last two months, I just treated him like any other horse and did the girth up a hole tighter than I normally would whilst he was tied up. Also, I had put a martingale on which I hadn't before. But he immediately spasmed, reared up and broncked across the yard. He was trembling in fear when I caught him. I took of his tak and then tried it again, this time really slowly. I put the de gouge on instead of riding him but as soon as I tried to connect it, he flipped again and I had to take everything off. Then I just gave up. I was completely gutted.

Best thing I think is to turn him away for a few months and try again late summer, like I was re backing him.

It really does help though to hear of others' setbacks that have turned out well. So pleased about your horse.
 
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Hi just wanted to post as my horse had the KS op 6yrs ago. He was incredibly reactionary as well and vets said PTS if you don't operate as he is in pain, he was a complete handful.
Well after the op the rehab was a rollercoaster, we had 2 or 3 major setbacks including him splitting his stitches being an idiot and as for walking in hand post op well no chance, he could barely cope with walking round the yard without flipping out it was pretty scary.

I truly believe when dealing with a KS horse that it isn't so much physical post op as mental issues that you have to deal with as they are so used to feeling not 100% which makes them think they have to run for cover or defend themselves constantly because they feel a bit vunerable. It did take me a long time to convince my horse that he didn't need to be scared of life the whole time. Luckily for me he is doing well but still has days or weeks when he gets uptight but over time, each phase of being like this has become a bit easier to manage.

I could never lunge or pessoa my horse as he felt trapped and would bronc round the school it was like watching a cowboy film, so I learned to long rein properly (not lunge with 2 reins) and for some reason that worked brilliantly with him (we did have nutty moments whilst he was learning) and allow him to strengthen his back in a correct way without a rider, it also helped me build an incredible bond I think because he was being trained as another horse would deal with him in the herd, so he learned to trust me much more. I don't know if this is worth trying, but turning him away would be the worst thing you could do as he will losed the muscle you have built up to support his back, I would get him checked again to clarify if there actually is a pain issue and try to continue if it's safe. By the end of Ryan's rehab I enjoyed the long reining so much that even now I still long rein regularly and enjoy it more than the riding as we have a lovely time together, so it may be worth a shot.

I hope you get through this and it proves just a small setback, I have all my fingers crossed for you and you have my sympathy as horse flipping out on you after a ks experience is pretty unpleasant.
 
Oh heck, now I don't know what to do. I think he needs a break but I don't want him to lose muscle.

Regarding long reining, if you don't do more than walk, how does it build up enough muscle? Does pole work in work build up muscle?

I wonder if I should give him a few months off from the more high pressure stuff and just long rein him every other day? I just don't know what to do for the best. I will talk to the surgeon at Rossdales and see what she says on Tuesday.
 
So sorry to hear of the problems, I'm another that says to turn away could be the worse thing possible.. He's got to be regularly worked long and low -forever-to keep his back muscles built up and working in an elasticated way.
Keep trying-regular Physio-plenty of lunging long and low in whatever contraption he'll accept-play around with saddles,girths, numahs, shoeing, every type of Physio/chiro/massage/Bowen etc..
You do have to throw everything you can rehabbing horses from this surgery & not give up in the first year of return to work.
 
victoria1980x said:
how devastating and what an emotional roller coaster :(
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I was so thrilled by how he was going on. I thought the op was a miracle. So I guess I was more disappointed by this happening after so much good stuff.

Flame_ said:
Oh so sorry to hear this Wagtail, how disappointing. :( You've probably already ruled this out but I'll mention it in case you haven't since having found the KS. A lot of horses with tacking/girthing/mounting violent reactions have pain in the muscles which run in between the front legs, usually due to compensating for foot pain. Worth checking before you give up if you've not already, but take care of yourself working with him if he's so reactive.
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That is really interesting. He is very bad with the farrier, especially with his fronts. Yesterday, the only thing I did differently was to put a martingale on him. He has always had very big pectoral muscles too. I am going to have his shoes taken off I think.

kezimac said:
oh no, how completely devastating. Look wait to see what vets say first.
Mine has 8 touching and am not sure which way to go regarding surgery yet. she goes back next week to see svend and am just a bit concerned about surgery, but then also concerned about only having injections and then once insurance has gone what we do if all goes wrong.
I also think mine may have Sacro illiac issue too now so really in a tiz.

So sorry for you - its such hard work isnt it rehabilitating them and also a complete and utter emotional rollercoaster.
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There are so many success stories with the op. I would go for it. It ecrtainly did work for my boy until I started using that damned electronic massage rug.

spookypony said:
I'm so sorry to hear this! (((Vibes))) for your horse! :(
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Thank you.
 
Hi, for me I spent ages on Ryan's walk as he had learned to use his hips not his hocks to move to compensate for being uncomfortable. A good walk then means a better trot and so on. I long reined 5days a week just for 20mins, you can change the speed of the walk, throw in lots of halts and almost halts. Do some halt/walk/halts with only a few paces in between, basically get the back legs pushing which then work the abdominals which is key to him starting to lift his back a little.

Because you have an outside rein to help keep control you can do little half halts with quick releases to encourage the head to sink and ask for a bigger stride so you are looking at collected/medium etc etc, try to gradually increase the overtrack. You can pop in a few paces of trot, just build slowly, the key thing is to get his concentration on to you so after 6 strides of trot before he can tank off ask for walk then halt etc. Change circle sizes increasing and decreasing and move him around the school, do changes of reins etc. Make sure you are standing at his hip not his shoulder to ask for forwards and then at his shoulder to ask for the change of rein. Sorry you probably know all this but am just stating the obvious because it helps when you feel in control of what to do.

Do this for a week and make sure you are happy before ground poles, they do help but just start by placing the odd one here and there rather than a big long line of them, you could also put 4 out like a cross leaving a 10-15metre circle in the middle so you can work around them, starting outside, then middle then inside to help increase suppleness but make sure your horse is comfortable relaxed and happy before you ask more.

I don't know if that helps but I hope it does for starters, I love long reining you can find loads to do, my horse can easily do a prelim dressage test on them now, in fact he goes better than when ridden!!!! You will get a feeling from this of how he is coping, listen to him and he will tell you when he is ready for more and or ridden.

Just saw latest post if he has big chest muscles may well be he using forehand rather than back end to work and they can get very tight which can make some wither areas sore too, so even more important to get back end working properly, my horse was classic example of a forehand horse as he was scared to use back end correctly because of soreness back, the problem was he was so effective at using the front end you couldn't even feel it in the mouth he was light in the mouth it took a good intructor watching to see it clearly!
 
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Hi, my KS horse has been turned out for 3 months as part of his recovery, I do not agree it is the wrong thing to do, a horse out 24/7 constantly moving and grazing from the ground will stay semi fit and keep a good stretch along the back. I rode my horse as part of the original rehab and am now riding him again after being turned away with no issues. Follow your instincts if you have completed the initial rehab, only you know your horse
 
xxMozlarxx said:
Hi, my KS horse has been turned out for 3 months as part of his recovery, I do not agree it is the wrong thing to do, a horse out 24/7 constantly moving and grazing from the ground will stay semi fit and keep a good stretch along the back. I rode my horse as part of the original rehab and am now riding him again after being turned away with no issues. Follow your instincts if you have completed the initial rehab, only you know your horse
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I have to say my instincts are that he needs a complete break. It would be easier on me too, to make a fresh start after we have both had a break. But will talk it over with my vet.
 
Nothing much to add to what's already been said , except that there are big hugs from us down here. I do think it's worth him and you having a break , giving him the oppo to carry himself around out in the field is a good thing . Hugs Al
 
Hi Wagtail, I'm so sorry to hear that you are suffering a setback, I think anyone who has rehabbed a horse after KS surgery appreciates what an emotional roller coaster it is. I have ummed and ahhed about whether to post as too many differing opinions can be very confusing when you are stuck in the circle of what is best to do and talk yourself round and round trying to make a decision but then I thought maybe lots of ideas would help. I sadly had to have my boy PTS 9 months after surgery as his legs couldn't cope with the rehab and he was lame on 3 legs and in pain, if it wasn't for this, I think we would have made it :) personally, I would do the following,

Turn out for 2 weeks, the maximum time that can be taken without starting to loose topline, then have his back checked to see if there is any external signs of pain. I can understand turning him away but come the autumn you would have to start again from the beginning, with the cold weather and dark nights which can quickly become demoralising when setbacks arise.

Then I would go right back to basics and effectively re start him, long rein for 4 weeks. This may be better on the road if possible as a deep school can cause muscle strain and would provide you both with some breathing space and chill out together again.

Then I would introduce a bare back pad but still carry on the ground work so he gets used to something on his back. Does he react in a roller or just the saddle. Is the saddle the same as he had pre op? If so, just the sight of that saddle may be enough to cause him to worry! Is he turning away from you when you bring the saddle near him? If he is, try bringing over a different saddle just in case he recognises this as being the cause of his pain. When I first got back on spirit I used a bareback pad for a couple of weeks so that he got used to my weight again without the feeling of the saddle.

My best piece of kit was a tens machine! Spirit loved this, it was set for pain relief and muscle building as his back atrophied after the surgery, my physio set it up for me.

My gut feeling is that you can still get there, and hopefully it's just a set back but I appreciate that the emotional side can be exhausting and it'd sometimes hard to find the strength to keep going when you seem to be constantly going backwards.

Good luck :)
 
Wagtail, i'm so sorry to hear about your set-back as i have been following your posts regarding KS surgery and re-hab.
I'm sorry that i have nothing to add regarding re-hab advice, but there is certainly alot of good opinions posted above to consider.
It is so emotional re-habing a horse, and you find it takes most of your waking hours going around in circles and constantly asking whether you are doing the right thing for your horse. From all i've read, you come across as very level headed and clearly have your horses best interest at heart. So which ever route you decide to take, take strength from the fact that you have explored all of the options, and the decisions that you make on your horses behalf will be the right ones for you both.
You are a good and caring owner, but it is easy to find yourself thinking otherwise when you have set-backs.

Keep your strength up and all the very best of luck :)
 
I feel gutted for you :(

I've been reading your successes after the op and was really pleased it was going so well.

Best thing is to speak to your vet and go from there- it's so sad when you have clearly been putting so much time and emotional energy into recovery.

Keep us all posted x
 
Dab said:
Wagtail, i'm so sorry to hear about your set-back as i have been following your posts regarding KS surgery and re-hab.
I'm sorry that i have nothing to add regarding re-hab advice, but there is certainly alot of good opinions posted above to consider.
It is so emotional re-habing a horse, and you find it takes most of your waking hours going around in circles and constantly asking whether you are doing the right thing for your horse. From all i've read, you come across as very level headed and clearly have your horses best interest at heart. So which ever route you decide to take, take strength from the fact that you have explored all of the options, and the decisions that you make on your horses behalf will be the right ones for you both.
You are a good and caring owner, but it is easy to find yourself thinking otherwise when you have set-backs.

Keep your strength up and all the very best of luck :)
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Thank you. The support and advice I have received on here really has helped. He seems very happy in himself, and very full of it when I turn him out, so obviously he is not in much pain at liberty. You are right. It is so emotional re habbing a horse. I have been extremely fortunate with him until yesterday with not a single setback other than the head tossing. I just hope it works out in the end. Yesterday I was so down, but today I rode one of my liveries horses. He is such a pleasure to ride and it cheered me up a bit, especially when my boy started rearing up next to the fence wanting to come and play. :rolleyes:

Horses24-7 said:
I feel gutted for you :(

I've been reading your successes after the op and was really pleased it was going so well.

Best thing is to speak to your vet and go from there- it's so sad when you have clearly been putting so much time and emotional energy into recovery.

Keep us all posted x
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Thank you. Your support really does help. I will speak to the vets on Tuesday and see where I go from there.
 
I have no useful advice but just wanted to say how gutted I am for you as it seemed so positive for you both. All the good wishes and luck in the world for this being a short setback on a sucessful road to recovery.
 
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