Kissing spines?

T

TinaDenmark

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9 July 2007
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www.heste-nettet.dk
Anyone with a horse that has gone trough a Kissing spine operation?

How does the horse function after the operation?

I have a 4 year old, that has got tight spines. We are thinking about operation, but are very uncertain about the outcome. How painfull is it for the horse after the operation?

Tina from Denmark
 
Hi there my horse has just had her KS op 4.5 weeks ago and is progressing very well. She had 3 removed but is managing a 3-4 mile walk each day. We had to make a decision to end box rest 10 days early as it was blowing her mind and is now out during the day in a very small area with mild sedation and she is coping much better. I know when she's in pain or has done enough, but it doesn't seem to be excuriating for her and infact she seems far more settled after her op and was in more pain before it. If you'd like to pm me I'll be happy to give you a bit more info; but be warned the rehab is very demanding both physically and mentally on you, you need to be prepared to put in a lot of time and effort. As for the outcome Svend Kold will not do the operation unless he is sure that the horse will make a full recovery back to its full potential. Recovery rate 75-100%. Although very hard work, I'm glad a I went ahead and had it done cause I've got my beautiful mare back and that's only 4 weeks in. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you and do ask all the questions you can think of.
 
have posted loads of info on here - mine is 14 months on and doing well. Was rebacked just coming up to 12 months ago and we have taken it very very slowly because he had major behavioural problems learnt from pain. He went to his first show on Sunday and considering he was a bit worried by such a new thing to him got 58% in his first pre-lim and 57% in novice so I am thrilled I went ahead, he is a much happier horse.

If you look in the archive last june/july you should find a fair bit - the op has been discussed at great length on this forum. Ask for referral from your vet to Willersley Equine Clinic and only use Svend Kold, he is the best and will give you an honest opinion. As long as you can cope with the rehab, pretty much all of the horses he operates on (well I asked about the last 100!) go back in to some form of work. I choose him because he does this op 2 or 3 times a week and is very experienced, he is also much cleverer about how he takes the bone out than anyone else I have come across.

Hope that helps.
 
Thank you for your answers.

Was your horse in much pain after the operation?

Mine is in Denmark, ang we are a bit "against" the operation, because we are affraid that the horse will be in MUCH pain in the rehab? And we are unsertian about the chances for a 100% funcinal horse after the operation.

Sorry about my spelling, I am from Denmark. Hope you understand.
 
I decided not to get the op for my horse. However, he was 12 years old and the KS had also caused arthritis in his hocks.
It was the hardest decision ever, but we felt the best thing to do was put him down.
KS surgery is very expensive, and although the results are generally good, I have seen a few who haven't recovered well, and have later had to be put down, after a lot of pain and expense....
 
Actually he was on 1 bute a day by day 10 couldn't believe it, saw him 3 hours after the op and he looked amazing and stuffing his face with hay - pain relief is key which is why I recommended Svend Kold, am pretty certain he does travel to Europe and Denmark to do these ops - you could do worse than look up the website for Willersley. Think Svend is possibly Danish?????

Only thing I would say is that my horse does cope well with adversity if you have a very sensitive TB it might not deal with it quite as well. I was told all of these horror stories about not to visit for the first few days because of the pain they are in etc etc - this is complete rubbish with a good surgeon, I asked Svend and he said my horse would be pleased to see me - as I said he looked fine when I saw him 3 hours after surgery, was just staggered! Good luck am happy to answer any other questions, is a horrible decision to have to make but it is becoming much more of a routine op in the uk
 
Hi, the pain aspect doesn't seem to be much of an issue. As Beth says the pain killers are set very acurately to your horse for the first ten days. When Honey had hers done she was one of three horses there for the same treatment and all the horses seemed completely laid back and not distressed at all. Honey is 12 years old and I've had her for seven and it is the best thing I have ever done for her. From the day I collected her from Willesley she has appeared completely happy and relieved to be free of the low grade permanent pain that she had been in prior to the op. I know I have a long way to go yet with her, but I am so glad that she was operable; and the intensive program of work for the rehab is strengthing our bond and her trust in me is wonderful. I know it sounds really daft but I know my horse and I know that she is very content and very happy to be out of pain. Like Beth I'm not in a rush and intend to take things very very slowly (and she's been a great support for me, along with a few valuable others on this forum) as Honey must have suffered incredible back pain for a long period of time before it was diagnosed; so I know that she will have a lot of bad memories to get over, but she is very geniune and is already offering me more than I ever thought she would be capable of at this stage. If Svend does travel to Europe, please do check out the Willesley site, he's fantastic and really does know his stuff. By the way Honey was back home with me just 4 days after the operation, but she did not have very far to travel only about a 90km journey. She lets me groom her scar doesn't flinch is able to roll in the field. The only time I can see that she's still stiff and limited is if she tries to be an idiot and do a little excited buck or something like that, because she seems to realise it's not a very clever idea after the first little hop, but she's not limping round in complete pain, I wouldn't be prepared to put her through that. I don't know what more I can say to convince you that the op is worthwhile; and at the end of the day if you don't do something for your chap his low grade, long term pain will only increase. I suspose it's a bit like any of us having an operation, yes it's uncomfortable for a couple of weeks after, but when/if you've been in long term pain you're relieved that's over; and a couple of weeks of strong painkillers is worth it.
 
Im sur if you do the op you wont look back. My horse was operated on Dec 05 and is now training at advance med level dressage, learning changes, piaffe and passage so defintely was the best descision i ever made. He wasnt in a great deal of pain post op and the scar area is fantastic, you wouldnt notice unless i told you about it. I do wish you the best of luck with your horse. Can you give a little more info, how many would have to be removed, how old and what breed your horse is, Many thanks
 
Cartitas: Thank you for your story. How long were your horse in rehab? Was the operation made, while the horse was standing up?

My horse is 4 years old, Danish. I dont exactly know how many he would have to have removed.
One doktor recomended opration, another did nok because of the pain involved for the horse.

It is a very sensitive horse, so we worry that it would be a very painfull rehab.

A picture of him when he was 2½ years old.

100845.jpg
 
What a beautiful horse - The horses are operated on under general anaesthetic, Svend Kold is clever in the way he does it as he takes out one of the crossing bones which solves the problem rather than both like most other people, this is why I recommended him as he has actually thought of an intelligent way to do the op. This means half time in theatre and under anaesthetic for the horse. Ryan went into theatre at 9.30am and was in recovery around 11am having had 3 bones taken out so not terrible. As for the pain, a good clinic should make getting this right a priority. He looks a stunning horse and well worth the effort to save him, but it is a very individual and personal choice for each owner to make. Rehab is hard work but I actually have a better horse for it and as we re-schooled I have a lovely, sensitive happy horse who understands what he is being asked. Although I wouldn't have chosen to deal with this in the first place, I am very grateful for all that it has taught me.

 
Wow Beth H I did not know that about Svend doing the op in a different way to everybody else! So thats very interesting!
Everyone is amazed when they see my horse now they would never have thought that he had had an operation.

I do not think there was a upsetting amount of pain involved for my horse ( operated on April 06)- he was as happy as larry the day after the op and came home ( 10 days later) looking in better condition then before he went in.

To all of you guys Caritas etc- Owen went clear round showjumping today, my god he was a star and just flew everything. Just loves his jumping 100% now.He Really did not want to know before. So am very excited about his first ODE in 2 weeks !!
 
Congratulations to Owen - what an achievement am so pleased for you, Ryan went to his first dressage show on Sunday, we were both incredibly nervous but despite lots of spooking, we completed our prelim test, I thought I rode dreadfully as very tense but we still got 58% which I thought was a good start and then Ryan relaxed loads, did a novice and got 57% and we both came home in one piece. I was so incredibly proud of how he coped despite during our test having a lady waming up cantering straight at us on her out of control 16.3hh nightmare, which didn't help to calm our nerves as Ryan decided to take flight to get out the way and knocked the whilteboards flying bless him!

Tina try this website and look under who's who for Svend - he is a very nice approachable person but very busy so he will always talk to you but not have loads of time. Hope this helps and let us know how you get on.

www.equine-vet-willesley.co.uk
 
I will try to contact this Svend. But only chance is, if he does the operation in Denmark or Sweden. I will not put my horse trough a day long travell to UK. That would be to stressfull.

Anyone else with a kissing spines "story"?

At the moment the horse is not in a "operation stage". We are still giving him blocks, and hope that the right training will do the trick. At the moment he is walkning a lot on a tread-mill. And has been trained a lot from the grown.

A picture from the training:

http://www.heste-nettet.dk/lodge/billede/521196/full/
 
Hi Tina, your fella looks absolutely stunning and well worth the investment.

I know that Svend likes the horses to go through a fitness programme first before doing the op. This involved Honey going onto Bute for 3 weeks and being working in a tight pessoa every day to try to lift her back ,lengthen her topline and pull up the abs; as it appears that some horses respond to this very well, but do have to be kept very fit after and worked in the correct outline all the times (same as after surgery). So even if you decide that the op is not the direction you want to go in; perhaps if you contact Svend anyway he would be able to advise you a bit more about the fitness regime that seems to greatly benefit this type of horse, it maybe that that might be enough for your fella.
Good luck
 
Beth, congratulations, I am sure that I owe you an email. Dan had 3 spines removed by Svend in September last year. I was stunned that the first thing that he did when he got home was roll over and over in his bed. He then hook himself off and started eating. Dan has never shown any sign of pain at all and it doing very very well. The rehab is time consuming and at times you feel like you are getting no where at all but all that fades away when you get back to riding your horse. I am afraid that I do think that Svend is a demi-god in this area. I was told that the op was a cruel and painful thing to put a horse through. After speaking with Beth, Svend and a lot of others I decided that it was the best thing to do and havent looked back.
 
Hi. Ive been reading this with interest, as the pony i ride has possible kissing spine. The vet wouldnt recommend the op because he's already 14 and not really a competition pony. But he did say that if we went ahead with the op, it would be at least a year of just turnout before he could start being brought back into any kind of work - where as many of you seem to say they were back in work within a few months...
 
They dont need to be competition horses/ponies to qualify for the operation, I am not aware of any age constraints either. Svend doesnt operate on all that he sees as he has to be sure that the horse will benefit from the operation and that it hasnt other physical problems. Svend recommended 6 weeks box rest but allowed in hand grazing, then allowed to be turned out in a small paddock with 6 weeks lunging and then ridden. I extended the lunge period but that was my choice. I think that the recouperation period varies subject to who does the operation and the method that they use.
 
My boy has just been rebacked after his op in Dec and although he clearly remembers pain in certain circs he is doing well. He had the top of three of his vertebrae right under the saddle area taken off and although I know it's going to take along time I know with patience he'll do well. He's only five and homebred and I didn't understand how he would one minute be a star and the next violently buck me off, after many people telling me he was a pig and should be sent away to be beaten into submission I got my vet out and he referred me to a horse hospital and they found the severe KS, I was amazed he let me sit on him at all he was clearly in a lot of pain. He is still incredibly sharp and a very smart boy but he's learning it doesn't hurt anymore.
Your boy is a stunner and if I was in the same circumstances again I wouldn't hesitate to do exactly the same. Good luck and let us know how you get on!!
 
Thanks again for the response.
Yesterday I saw the xray pictures for the first time, and my horse has only got one spinal "tap" that rugs against the other.
BUT as a outcone af that, he has got something deaper in the spine, below the kissing spine area. Its called "facetled" in danish, dont really know the english word for this.
So yesterday we put in a block, that only bloks the area of the kissing spine. This will show me what a operation might do for my horse. We have to be 110% sure, that the area below the KS, does not give my horse problems.

He has for the last 1½ week walked on a treadmill, with VERY good results. So I am very exited to how this block works for my horse.

The vet said that some horses could be trained out of the KS-pain, without the operation. Has any of you had any god experence with this?

As I see it, there is a lot more KS operations in the UK. So I was wondering, in a potential sales-situation, can you ever sell a horse that has had a KS operation? Or does every buyer go around these horses?

Im am not planing on selling my horse in the nearest future, but I am starting university this year, so it will not be a horse I can keep forever. Sadly...
 
For some horses, if worked correctly from the ground in what we call a pessoa (I prefer long reins but pessoa's seems to be the favoured UK gadget!) for a period of time so that they give a long and low outline and strengthen and stretch out the back, the increased muscling in the area can support the spine and allow the horse to work. Basically they inject anaesthetic into the back followed by steroids, the idea being that it numbs the back for long enough for you to work them like this and start to build muscle, this sounds as though this is what your vet has started to do. For some this palliative route works and vets will always prefer to try it first and especially on older horses who are not ideal candidates for the op. I personally think that if the spine problem is there and the bones are crossing surgery is the only way of totally resolving the situation, but it is a lot of work to rehab them.

As for resale value I have no idea, I know of horses who have been sold and who are competing at a high level after this op but I would think it would put some people off, mind you I would be less likely to be put off something that had a problem that had been resolved that one that hadn't. Don't forget that the back is likely to continue to deteriorate and that you will have a potential lamess problem going forward. Personally I preferred to operate so that my horse was no longer in pain, but it is a very personal choice and the schooling route can work for many other horses just sadly not for mine.

Hope that helps
 
Hi again. We have now decided on operation, and have found a vet in Sweden Palle Brink, who has godt very sucessfull results with Kissing Spines operation. He can do the operation, while the horse is standing and only given a mild form of drugs.
The rehab with this operation is much shorter, and the horse only has to stay in the stable for 14 days, and is then ready to walk slowly. I think you can allready begin to ride him in walk after 6 weeks - but i prefer a long rehab from the grown.

We found out that he has only got stage one KS, so ony one "tap" is the problem.

So I am VERY nervous and exided to see how everything goes.

Please keep sending storys with your horse, who has gone through this operation :-)
 
Glad you have made the decision and have my fingers crossed that everything goes well for you, I agree with you that plenty of long and low work from the ground is the best way to strengthen your boy post op. I saw my vet yesterday and he gave Ryan a quick check up, we are now 16 months on from the operation, he has passed Ryan as 100% fine to start jumping etc etc but has just told me to take double the amount of time that I usually would to bring him on in that respect. It seems possible to me that the quicker you push them on after the op the more likely you might be to encounter problems. My rehab was 6 weeks walking in hand and then 6 weeks working long and low from the ground in pessoa/long reins and then gently into ridden work in walk, he is now being ridden 5 to 6 days a week and touch wood staying very sound.

Best of luck with the op, I would be really interested to hear how you get on as I haven't heard of this op being done apart from under general anaesthetic. It is great it can be done in such a manner. I am sure you have already checked, but make sure the surgeon had loads of experience of doing the op this way.
 
BethH: Was your horse in full anaesthetic (not awake) and lying down under the operation? That is how it is done in Denmark, and is much more dangerous and painfull for the horse after the operation.
I found this sweedish wet, becauce I know another horse in Denmark who has been to see him, and had this operation instead of the Danich method. The horse was awake during the ob, only given painkillers in the area that they operate on. The scar after the operation is also very small.
This horse is now after 7 weeks way ahead of another horse in the stable, wich has had the Danish operation. So it is much better this way for the horse.

I thought the "sweedish operation" was the way you also did it in the UK?

I have my horse in a rehab center, so that he is monitered 24 hours a day, also after the operation. And when he is ready, the rehab will be on the tread-mill and pessoa/long rains.

Do you not use a tread-mill in the UK? It works wonders for my horse, and he is now building a lot of mucles due to the operation.
 
It is now 14 days ago since the horse had the Operation. It seems to have gone very sucessfully, and the horse is not in much pain.
Though the last few days, there has been some swelling round the wound, but not infected. The wet said that it migt be blood crowds, which is normal.

I would very muck like to hear more storys concerning re-hab.??
 
hi, just booked my boy in for his op, kissing spine, they have to remove 5 process, sorry cant spell,lol. it has took me a long time to decide, i have done phsyo, steroid inj ect.
he is booked in on the 9 june, im a nervous reck,
any one who has been through this please email me.
thanks, just need some help and advice, of people who have been there, thanks,
vicky
 
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