Lame grass livery

[JillA]

Those who take "paying guests" at grass, to what extend do you/can you interfere with a problem. Elderly TB grass livery has intermittent lameness in front, with toe pointing and difficulty moving around the paddock. Owner knows but seems reluctqant to properly investigate. She has had a body worker look at the mare (and take thermographic photos ???) and a farrier plus my trimmer have attended but not been asked to investigate. Mare isn't putting much weight on it (foreleg) and you'd think she would have got her vet out by now. How much if at all can I insist - I hate seeing the mare struggling. The only thing I can see she has done in the last day or two is restrict her grazing to a smaller area of about 1/3 acre

 

[Barton Bounty]

I would approach her and say that it is a welfare issue and she is very uncomfortable and you are insisting that she gets her seen to asap ❤

 

[AmyMay]

Do you live on site?

 

[irishdraft]

I would insist she gets vet/ farrier to properly investigate, it could just be an abscess brewing but either way isn't fair just to leave the mare to it .

 

[SantaVera]

insist she calls out the vet, as the land owner/livery provider you too are responsible for the horses welfare. tell her if she wont you wuill and bill her for it including your time as well as the vets. if you are a bhs member give them a call they can advise on the legal situation,

 

[JillA]

Do you live on site?

No, about 1/4 mile away but I'm there twice a day

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

If it’s your land and she is paying you to be there then the responsibility for welfare lands on your shoulders same as Livery yard owners if anyone phones in a complaint.

I would tell her to book the vet and be there for her getting the vet to ensure it’s done properly.

 

[JillA]

If it’s your land and she is paying you to be there then the responsibility for welfare lands on your shoulders same as Livery yard owners if anyone phones in a complaint.

I would tell her to book the vet and be there for her getting the vet to ensure it’s done properly.

Where is the law saying the land owner is responsible? Is that also true if you rent land rather than space on some land?

 

[AmyMay]

No, about 1/4 mile away but I'm there twice a day

In that case, as you have your own horses on the land too you too have a duty of care. Tell her she needs to make a vet appointment next week and if she doesn’t you will, and she‘ll be billed accordingly (for the vet and your time).

 

[AmyMay]

Where is the law saying the land owner is responsible? Is that also true if you rent land rather than space on some land?

If it’s on a livery yard then the law is very clear that a burden of responsibility falls on to the YO for duty of care of the animals on the yard. If a field is rented out away from the landowner for sole use, then there is likely no duty of care. However as this person is effectively sharing the land with you you would (most likely) be deem to have a duty of care also.

 

[Rowreach]

Keeping horses commercially

How to meet expected welfare, health and safety standards in the horse industry if keeping horses for commercial purposes in the UK.

www.gov.uk

Legally you have a duty of care, but in any event any time one of my liveries had an issue, I made sure it was being dealt with.

 

[ihatework]

I think the only thing you can really do is request she gets the vet to attend to the horse and if she refuses give her notice to leave.

 

[JillA]

I still need to find out what the law says - personally I doubt the landowner is responsible unless it is for abandoned animals. Sources please!!!

 

[AmyMay]

I still need to find out what the law says - personally I doubt the landowner is responsible unless it is for abandoned animals. Sources please!!!

You were given a link up thread. If you don’t want to be involved give her notice to quit and don’t have any more liveries.

 

[Widgeon]

I think the only thing you can really do is request she gets the vet to attend to the horse and if she refuses give her notice to leave.

I would do this, you can always couch it as "due to my legal responsibilities I'm unable to let you leave the horse as it is". That shifts the onus off you a bit.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I still need to find out what the law says - personally I doubt the landowner is responsible unless it is for abandoned animals. Sources please!!!

^^^ All I will say is that when I started out here 30yrs ago; I took in two very old horses for a "friend" my mother knew of at the time.

They were both visibly "poor" doers. And looked it. However the owner's vet was here at least twice a week (these were her old Pony Club/jumping ponies) and so I didn't worry too much.

Then one day the RSPCA rocked up. Last thing any YO needs is their blessed van parked outside! They said they'd "had some information" that there were some horses on the place who were looking poorly. I invited them to ring the owner and/or their vet (who was a well known equine vet in these parts at that time), but they declined. Now I know (in hindsight and many years later) that RSPCA have no automatic right of entry onto property unless they come with a correctly filled-in warrant accompanied by a police officer(s), and if the "warrant" document hasn't got your name/address, or ANY details not 100% correct, you can refuse them entry. I have an unusual name so they'd probably have got that wrong!

They looked at the horses, and went away again, and we heard nothing more. Told owner and she got her arse in her hand and moved them back to her sister's place (who ran a yard in the area). Thank god thought I.

But .......... sorry for the digression - but as Landowner you ARE deemed Responsible for any animal in your care. I've also more recently had to speak to the sheep farmer who'd put some very poor looking sheep on our pasture; the blessed thing had mastitis - and eventually had to be despatched.

 

[Clodagh]

I had a lame livery and made them take her away as I couldn’t bear to watch it. The law was irrelevant, I wasn’t having a cruelly treated horse on my watch, and a horse that is reluctant to weight bear and receiving no treatment is being cruelly treated.

 

[Rowreach]

I still need to find out what the law says - personally I doubt the landowner is responsible unless it is for abandoned animals. Sources please!!!

I’ve provided a link to a government website, and if you do a quick Google yourself you will find more sources.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I still need to find out what the law says - personally I doubt the landowner is responsible unless it is for abandoned animals. Sources please!!!

You were given the link. If someone is paying you for livery then you are providing a service, not the land owner. You are providing the livery essentially.

This is the thing when folk who offer livery have no idea of the ins and outs and think that it’s all in the owners when things go wrong with horses.

 

[SusieT]

I would call the owner today and insist they come out while I was there and call a vet, ensure pain relief was being administered at least. If they refuse to call a vet I would make them aware and I would call a welfare organisation. Yes, it might be hard. But the animal is suffering .

 

[Auslander]

My livery contracts states that the owner agrees that I will call the vet if I believe the horse needs treatment. 9 times out of 10, I call the owner first to discuss, but I have and will always make getting the horse seen my priority.
Although the above relates mostly to emergencies, I have in the past lost a livery that I adored, because I told his owner that she needed to get him investigated, or leave my yard. She chose to leave, and her dear horse took a bit of my heart with him. If I could find him, I'd have him back in a heartbeat to retire

 

[Goldenstar]

You have a duty of care you need to exercise it .

 

[Red-1]

Duty of care or not, I wouldn't have a livery on my property that I felt wasn't looking after their horse and the horse was suffering.

I know it is an uncomfortable thing to do, but it is a job that is better for being done.

Personally, I would say that I believed the horse needed a vet and if she refused, I would give notice.

 

[JillA]

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 says in para 3(3) the person who owns the animal is the person responsible for its welfare. Unless you know of legislation stating otherwise all you are telling us on this post is urban myths. Mea Culpa, I had forgotton what people are like on this forum. Goodbye

 

[Clodagh]

Well I suggest if you are not legally obliged to help the horse you carry right on enabling neglect.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 says in para 3(3) the person who owns the animal is the person responsible for its welfare. Unless you know of legislation stating otherwise all you are telling us on this post is urban myths. Mea Culpa, I had forgotton what people are like on this forum. Goodbye

No great loss, forum doesn’t particularly do well with people who just sit back and watch animal abuse on their land, don’t let the door hit you on the way out

ETA from a solicitors website

Running a Livery Yard: Do’s and Don’ts from a Legal Perspective

Do make it clear to owners/keepers that you are legally obliged to act on any welfare concerns if they are not taking appropriate steps to address them. As a livery yard proprietor, a horse spends

www.isonharrison.co.uk

 

[Surbie]

No one knows how you have written the terms of your livery agreement and how responsibilities are articulated. But your original post sounds like you were looking for help in talking to the livery about their horse. Section 3 states 'a person who owns an animal shall always be regarded as being a person who is responsible for it'. It does not say 'the' person, which allows for other people having responsibility.

Section 4 on unnecessary suffering would be what I would use if this were happening on my land.

Edited to include the link to Section 4: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/45/section/4

 

[TPO]

You were obviously concerned enough to post about it. Seems strange to have a strop when people agree with you [that leaving a horse in pain is unacceptable].

Do you really need legal backup to tell a livery that their horse needs veterinary attention because it is in pain and has been for some time? Even more so when you have the ability to enforce action and/or remove the neglector.

 

[AmyMay]

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 says in para 3(3) the person who owns the animal is the person responsible for its welfare. Unless you know of legislation stating otherwise all you are telling us on this post is urban myths. Mea Culpa, I had forgotton what people are like on this forum. Goodbye

I’m not sure why you’re getting the hump with anyone.

You asked (essentially) what you can do about the situation. Regardless of what legalities may (or you think may not exist) morally, at least, some action has to be taken. Obviously the easiest thing for you to do is simply give her notice.

 

[Rowreach]

The Animal Welfare Act 2006 says in para 3(3) the person who owns the animal is the person responsible for its welfare. Unless you know of legislation stating otherwise all you are telling us on this post is urban myths. Mea Culpa, I had forgotton what people are like on this forum. Goodbye

"People" have taken time to answer your query, based on the information you provided, and also based on their ethical beliefs about horse welfare. But you do you, I hope the horse gets the treatment it needs.