Video Lameness investigations, what would you do (slo-mo video)

[Trouper]

At the risk of being a stuck record I think I would ask someone like Tom Beech to look at him first. Expensive tests/investigations on individual parts of him may well find things but may well not be the whole story. I agree about the odd head carriage but that is often where problems start and then travel to other areas. Have a look at Tom's FB page for the sort of cases he deals with and some of his very interesting articles.

 

[BBP]

At the risk of being a stuck record I think I would ask someone like Tom Beech to look at him first. Expensive tests/investigations on individual parts of him may well find things but may well not be the whole story. I agree about the odd head carriage but that is often where problems start and then travel to other areas. Have a look at Tom's FB page for the sort of cases he deals with and some of his very interesting articles.

Hi, he has seen Tom twice in the last year (not since Covid hit though). Sacroiliac and jaw were the focus at that time. I am going to send him the getting up and slow motion videos today.

 

[ester]

I don't know if same for others, but friend's neck issues were picked up during a vetting as it was worse at the second work phase (ie work, rest in box, work again) when he lost the ability to pick up canter.

 

[Turitea]

I am inclined towards a neck issue. When he gets up after each roll his proprioception seems off.

 

[IrishMilo]

What did your vet say about the getting up thing?

If he were mine I'd sort the toes out and try to fix the DCS first. It's cheap and requires minimal stress on both your parts. What do his heel bulbs look like?

It's really tough when they keep going wrong - I've just chucked mine away until I figure out what to do with him.

 

[Michen]

What did your vet say about the getting up thing?

If he were mine I'd sort the toes out and try to fix the DCS first. It's cheap and requires minimal stress on both your parts. What do his heel bulbs look like?

It's really tough when they keep going wrong - I've just chucked mine away until I figure out what to do with him.

Sympathies IM and BPP- I'm greatly enjoying mine being out in the field but know what's likely around the corner for us both at the end of this month... not fun.

No suggestions just hugs!

 

[Teaboy]

The thing that caught my eye was his near hind and how low the fetlock went, the front end could be caused because of issues behind.

Agree with this. To me it was the near hind that caught my eye.

 

[BBP]

Agree with this. To me it was the near hind that caught my eye.

I’m trawling back through old photos and it looks like the near hind has always dropped really low. The off hind is harder to see, I seem to have less photos in that stance to compare with. I would welcome photos of other people’s horses in that stance.

 

[BBP]

What did your vet say about the getting up thing?

If he were mine I'd sort the toes out and try to fix the DCS first. It's cheap and requires minimal stress on both your parts. What do his heel bulbs look like?

It's really tough when they keep going wrong - I've just chucked mine away until I figure out what to do with him.

Vet thought it could be knees and thinks we should medicate and see. Osteo thinks it could still be feet as x-ray won’t show soft tissue. (although I’ve just sent them all more videos)

Have had another chat with vet who says gold standard (given it could be hinds, fronts, neck, sacroiliac) would be a full body bone scan at cost of thousands to show the where. Then x-rays/scans of any hot areas to show the why. It’s so hard to know what to do and how much to spend. He is only ever destined to be a fun hacking/schooling at home horse, no need to compete or jump. But I want him to be able to get up comfortably/safely, and generally be as comfy as possible, so I can’t just ignore and do nothing. His quality of life is ok, but I want it to be better.

 

[Goldenstar]

Have you problems with his frogs behind at all ?

 

[ihatework]

Now I haven’t had a bone scan done on anything for about 6/7 years, do my prices are probably way out of date. But last time I did there was quite a bit of variability - I called around a number of referral hospitals, got quotes for paid upfront and got a bone scan done and interpreted for 1.1k all in.

 

[BBP]

Have you problems with his frogs behind at all ?

No frogs behind have always looked really good.

 

[quizzie]

...Just be aware that a bone scan only shows up areas with current increased blood flow/inflammation, so an old injury that may be causing pressure somewhere, may not show up on a bone scan, despite still having an acute effect....Seen it happen...funnily enough in a neck case.....The bone scan was normal, but the X-rays told another tale..severe arthritic change of a cervical facet joint, pressing on the spinal cord, but not an active progressing lesion at the time.

If you want any more info..feel free to PM me

 

[BBP]

Now I haven’t had a bone scan done on anything for about 6/7 years, do my prices are probably way out of date. But last time I did there was quite a bit of variability - I called around a number of referral hospitals, got quotes for paid upfront and got a bone scan done and interpreted for 1.1k all in.

Was that for a whole horse? Or just a ‘chunk’? I paid just under 1.5 for back and hinds about 5 years ago, vet said to add in neck and front adds another chunk of money on.

 

[ihatework]

Bone scans show areas of bone turnover, not blood flow/inflammations

But I suppose the message is still the same

 

[ihatework]

Was that for a whole horse? Or just a ‘chunk’? I paid just under 1.5 for back and hinds about 5 years ago, vet said to add in neck and front adds another chunk of money on.

Whole horse

 

[quizzie]

Bone scans show areas of bone turnover, not blood flow/inflammations

But I suppose the message is still the same

It amounts to the same thing, as increased bone turnover requires increased blood flow, therefore more radioactivity is localised in those spots.

 

[BBP]

...Just be aware that a bone scan only shows up areas with current increased blood flow/inflammation, so an old injury that may be causing pressure somewhere, may not show up on a bone scan, despite still having an acute effect....Seen it happen...funnily enough in a neck case.....The bone scan was normal, but the X-rays told another tale..severe arthritic change of a cervical facet joint, pressing on the spinal cord, but not an active progressing lesion at the time.

If you want any more info..feel free to PM me

Its complicated isn’t it? I did ask if we could just try X-ray neck and fronts and they have said we can, but that sometimes x-ray shows some sort of pathology but it isn’t always the cause of a problem and some horses can have that same change but no symptoms.

I’m tempted to say to hell with it and see if they will x-ray neck, knees, fetlocks, and scan hinds, and see what picture that gives without bone scanning and a world of nerve blocks.

 

[BBP]

Whole horse

Oh wow, ok. My two locals are definitely more.

 

[Caol Ila]

I looked for photos of my horse in that stance. This one is a bit pants and she was jogging over some boggy ground, but the fetlocks do not appear to be going as low as seen on your video. :-( So maybe it's something to look at? TBH, the trot didn't look terrible, at least not if you don't know how the horse can move. But the getting up from rolling videos look downright scary.

 

[TPO]

Honestly in answer to "what would you do if he was your horse", I'd pts.

To me lameness equates to pain. I know that it is possible to have a painless mechanical lameness but I don't think that's the case here. As this is a video where the horse is on a high dose (for him) of danolin I would question his level of discomfort.

The video is on a soft surface so that will highlight soft tissue injuries more; have you done the same on hard ground?

This isnt the "start point" as you've both already been through the mill with various issues. From what's been written it sounds as if he struggles to be a horse in the field with the falls and movement too.

It's understandable that you want to fix your horse, all of us love our horses and want to do the best by them and for them to be ok.

Even if you ran every diagnostic mentioned here and got diagnoses then what? If anything was an easy fix you would already have done them.

You mention that hes not happy without boots. I'm betting that you have been vigilant of his hoofcare from the day dot yet still there is something going on (been there, feel your pain). Also if hes feeling his feet while also getting danolin that would worry me too.

I am so sorry. I've been in a similar position although mine had one undiagnosed reoccurring problem and as I fixed other bits then the wheels would fall off somewhere else. He had careful balanced his compensations and with hindsight fixing some issues made it worse. He was loveliest horse who was more like a labrador than a TB. Everyone who met him loved him and I desperately wanted him to be ok. He was a comfortable field ornament for 5.5yrs of the 6yrs (first 6mths was figuring out how broken he was) that I owned him and some professionals couldnt even see the issues/lameness latterly.

It broke my heart that I didnt fully fix him but after he went a huge weight, that I didnt know I was carrying, was lifted. It had become my normal so I didnt notice that every day I was waiting for there to be something else with him and worrying. With the benefit of hindsight I wish I'd pts a lot sooner. I didnt realise what a toll, although I didnt begrudge him it, it took on me/social life/sleep/bank balance and it made no difference to the ultimate outcome.

I am genuinely sorry that you are here. Its heartbreaking. I hope that there is a simple answer and treatment that fixes everything that appears to be going on.

 

[Red-1]

The hind end is what I am drawn to as well.

I wonder what he looks like on his hind end from above? Jay Man (wobbler) looked fab and well muscled from behind and from the side, but if you looked at him from directly above, he was missing a whole section of muscle.

I had some photos, you would not believe the above photo was the same horse (same day) as the other views.

With him, we gave a course of steroids orally, they gave him 6 months of gentle hacking and 6 more retired before it got worse and I PTS.

With the legs, I would do a leg a day on a nerve block test from bottom to top. Plan on all 4 days. That will give a better idea of what else to investigate, but I would do the wobbler tests. The vet hospital will be equipped with soft luge, hard lunge, hard area, ramp for up and down.

It is simply awful when there os 'something' but you can't pinpoint it. I was so sad for Jay as he could have been retired for however long he wanted, but he lost so much awareness of his body, it was no longer safe or fair to him.

 

[BBP]

Honestly in answer to "what would you do if he was your horse", I'd pts.

To me lameness equates to pain. I know that it is possible to have a painless mechanical lameness but I don't think that's the case here. As this is a video where the horse is on a high dose (for him) of danolin I would question his level of discomfort.

The video is on a soft surface so that will highlight soft tissue injuries more; have you done the same on hard ground?

This isnt the "start point" as you've both already been through the mill with various issues. From what's been written it sounds as if he struggles to be a horse in the field with the falls and movement too.

It's understandable that you want to fix your horse, all of us love our horses and want to do the best by them and for them to be ok.

Even if you ran every diagnostic mentioned here and got diagnoses then what? If anything was an easy fix you would already have done them.

You mention that hes not happy without boots. I'm betting that you have been vigilant of his hoofcare from the day dot yet still there is something going on (been there, feel your pain). Also if hes feeling his feet while also getting danolin that would worry me too.

I am so sorry. I've been in a similar position although mine had one undiagnosed reoccurring problem and as I fixed other bits then the wheels would fall off somewhere else. He had careful balanced his compensations and with hindsight fixing some issues made it worse. He was loveliest horse who was more like a labrador than a TB. Everyone who met him loved him and I desperately wanted him to be ok. He was a comfortable field ornament for 5.5yrs of the 6yrs (first 6mths was figuring out how broken he was) that I owned him and some professionals couldnt even see the issues/lameness latterly.

It broke my heart that I didnt fully fix him but after he went a huge weight, that I didnt know I was carrying, was lifted. It had become my normal so I didnt notice that every day I was waiting for there to be something else with him and worrying. With the benefit of hindsight I wish I'd pts a lot sooner. I didnt realise what a toll, although I didnt begrudge him it, it took on me/social life/sleep/bank balance and it made no difference to the ultimate outcome.

I am genuinely sorry that you are here. Its heartbreaking. I hope that there is a simple answer and treatment that fixes everything that appears to be going on.

Thank you. I appreciate your honesty. I feel I owe him some investigation into things that haven’t been checked yet, but I’m not discounting anything you have said (and others may have thought).

 

[PeterNatt]

Get your horse referred to Sue Dyson she is one of the best for Lameness Diagnosis.

 

[BBP]

The hind end is what I am drawn to as well.

I wonder what he looks like on his hind end from above? Jay Man (wobbler) looked fab and well muscled from behind and from the side, but if you looked at him from directly above, he was missing a whole section of muscle.

I had some photos, you would not believe the above photo was the same horse (same day) as the other views.

With him, we gave a course of steroids orally, they gave him 6 months of gentle hacking and 6 more retired before it got worse and I PTS.

With the legs, I would do a leg a day on a nerve block test from bottom to top. Plan on all 4 days. That will give a better idea of what else to investigate, but I would do the wobbler tests. The vet hospital will be equipped with soft luge, hard lunge, hard area, ramp for up and down.

It is simply awful when there os 'something' but you can't pinpoint it. I was so sad for Jay as he could have been retired for however long he wanted, but he lost so much awareness of his body, it was no longer safe or fair to him.

The nerve blocks are an issue as he was just plain dangerous last time. Full credit to the vet who did it, it was scary even with 4 of us hanging onto him. During coronavirus that’s just not really an option and would be incredibly stressful for him I think.
We did do all the wobblers and neuro tests around 5 years ago and at that point he did fine on all of them except the blink reflex. He does walk a little like he’s had an extra pint, in that no footfall lines up with any other. He has done this since he was 3 though. I have also just found photos of him as a 3yo with the black fetlock dropped when trotting, but I don’t have many images that show it well. I’m just looking for an old DVD of him as a young horse.

 

[BBP]

Get your horse referred to Sue Dyson she is one of the best for Lameness Diagnosis.

Where is she based now?

 

[BBP]

I just wanted to say I really appreciate everyone who has taken the time to comment, even if I haven’t directly replied to it I have taken it on board. I know we are all in the same boat at times where we realise how complex and honest and genuine these horses are, what they tolerate because we are ignorant and miss things, and how much we want to do everything to make sure they are happy and healthy.

 

[BBP]

It’s definitely brought on my chest pains today. Looking back on old photos I feel like I have failed him so badly. He was such a stunning young horse with so much potential and yet he has had so much to cope with. He looked better at 3 than he does now which isn’t great testament to my horse management skills.

 

[TPO]

It’s definitely brought on my chest pains today. Looking back on old photos I feel like I have failed him so badly. He was such a stunning young horse with so much potential and yet he has had so much to cope with. He looked better at 3 than he does now which isn’t great testament to my horse management skills.

You HAVEN'T failed him

As heartbreaking as it is some horses are just broken and not able for life be it as a ridden animal or field ornament regardless of if they were born that way or something happened to them.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

You most definitely haven't failed him, no-one could have given him more care. Your love for him shines through in every post, it just isn't fair that such a beautiful talented animal could have such problems but that unfortunately is life, it isn't always fair much as we would like it to be. Good luck with whatever you decide to do next.