Video Lameness investigations, what would you do (slo-mo video)

[[131452]]

I dont know your history with the horse but I agree with others, he is lame behind.
If you haven't done already , I would discuss x-raying stifles and fetlocks and also neck. My boy moved quite similar to this and he had stifle OCD. Is he able to back up? In the slow motion video you can see the hind legs kind of search the ground for a split second before landing, and this is a common wobbler symptom. Since he has difficulty getting up I would x-ray the neck.
Mine turned out to have quite a compression in his C5 and two weeks later was PTS age 5.
He was lame and was increasing aggressive and dangerous to handle so on vet's recommendation I released him from his suffering.
I still feel awful about it as he was so young but I couldn't keep a horse going that isn't comfortable. It didn't help that he became dangerous to handle.
Like your horse , I wonder how many people would have provided the level of veterinary care that I did and you are doing ? How many would just smack the horse until it behaves and not recognise it's in pain?
No you definitely haven't failed him.
There are also fates fat worse than death for sick or troubled horses

 

[ester]

Before cracking on with a myriad of other diagnostics I wonder if it’s worth putting a lameness locator on him if a practice has one locally?

 

[hobo]

Just to show I am as thick as a plank. I can only look at one thing at a time and if without the history I thought how nicely he moved in the slow motion each hind landing right where the front had been so was really shocked when it went to real time. The camera really does lie. I hope you find your answer of what is best for the both of you.

 

[Goldenstar]

Our practice has a lameness locator and I have to say it’s been spectacularly useless when used on my horses .
OP
I would get some nerve blocking and scanning done the hing legs .
See what that brings .
You could quickly spend the cost of a bone scan xraying bits .
If he where mine I send him to the vets for a day and ask them to work up the hind legs .
Choose the vet with care it you need someone who specialises in work ups .

You could Easily spend 5k working up this horse .
You need to try to put all the emotion aside and try to think logically about what’s the best way forward .

 

[Trouper]

It’s definitely brought on my chest pains today. Looking back on old photos I feel like I have failed him so badly. He was such a stunning young horse with so much potential and yet he has had so much to cope with. He looked better at 3 than he does now which isn’t great testament to my horse management skills.

I think you are being way too hard on yourself. You are obviously thinking of just about everything you can to try and help him and that is all any of us can do. I would wait to see what Tom says about the videos and take it from there. I have had to pts when there were no more options - that even Tom could suggest - but at least that gave me the peace of mind that everything had been thought of and tried. You are just being a responsible and loving owner.

 

[be positive]

Last year one of my liveries had a slightly complex set of symptoms, scans on suspensories were showing some cause for concern and the vet suggested DSLD was possible, I thought it may be worth mentioning as BBP does have a few of the signs as well as being from breeding that is know to be affected, it could explain why he is struggling and has had one issue after another.


http://www.ckequinehospital.com/page/184/Degenerative-Suspensory-Ligament-Desmitis-DSLD

 

[BBP]

As I say, nerve blocks are a no-go at the moment unfortunately, so we have to see what we can do without them.
I think he knows I have been talking about him, this morning I put him in the arena for a roll and once he got up he took himself around the trec course my sister had set up. Over the ‘jump’ (about 6 inches high) then round over the bridge. None were on the track, he went out of the way to go do them. Very sweet. I did stop him before he got carried away. He had his boots on and had gained that extra ‘flick’ of stride in trot at the front, instead of the hesitate and point the toe.
The more people have said it the more I think getting the back legs scanned is a good idea. I think the black fetlock drops lower than the white, but I do think looking at old images it has always done this. So perhaps a conformational weakness rather than a new injury. His legs are very cold and hard and tight, so acute injuries that cause heat or swelling are easy to notice on him, so it has to be something hidden away and less in your face.
I’m going to get some proper videos of him trotting up on the hard tonight, for vet/consultant farrier/osteo to look at.

 

[BBP]

Last year one of my liveries had a slightly complex set of symptoms, scans on suspensories were showing some cause for concern and the vet suggested DSLD was possible, I thought it may be worth mentioning as BBP does have a few of the signs as well as being from breeding that is know to be affected, it could explain why he is struggling and has had one issue after another.


http://www.ckequinehospital.com/page/184/Degenerative-Suspensory-Ligament-Desmitis-DSLD

Thank you for the link, I was reading a bit about it last night too. He certainly has some of the symptoms but not others. You will never find colder, harder, cleaner legs on a horse. He has zero puffy, lumpy, bumpy bits anywhere (that I have noticed anyway!). And doesn’t seem to mind anything being palpated or flexed. But I certainly agree that he drops the black fetlock pretty low, which is something I have never ever clocked with him, I think because I always bin the photos in that stride phase because it’s ugly, and once you move to a more aesthetically pleasing stance the fetlock looks ok. In real life and videos he moves so quickly I think I haven’t spotted it. That said he had his hinds worked up in 2018 and they didn’t pick anything up on the near hind, just the white one, which turned out to be the fractured splint.
I did mention it to the vet yesterday on the phone after you pointed it out and she said she would rewatch the videos.

 

[ester]

I had missed the rolls on this vid, it surprised me that he's purely pushing off his hocks to try and get up not from lower down.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Haven't red everything so excuse me if I'm barking up the wrong tree. Have you checked bloods and muscle enzymes?

After seeing videos of lame some horses are with PSSM and muscle issues, sometimes its one leg, then all legs, the front leg. It may well be worth checking the bloods. My gelding literally couldn't canter until he was supplemented Vitamin E and protein, bloods showed significant muscle damage.. prior to this we spent nearly 15k and was no better off scanning and x-raying, it was the fact someone mentioned muscled on here we checked it.

 

[IrishMilo]

Sympathies IM and BPP- I'm greatly enjoying mine being out in the field but know what's likely around the corner for us both at the end of this month... not fun.

No suggestions just hugs!

I have to admit that after 12 months of one thing after the other, I'm quite enjoying the respite of doing absolutely nothing. And I'm sure he feels the same!

 

[ester]

Haven't red everything so excuse me if I'm barking up the wrong tree. Have you checked bloods and muscle enzymes?

After seeing videos of lame some horses are with PSSM and muscle issues, sometimes its one leg, then all legs, the front leg. It may well be worth checking the bloods. My gelding literally couldn't canter until he was supplemented Vitamin E and protein, bloods showed significant muscle damage.. prior to this we spent nearly 15k and was no better off scanning and x-raying, it was the fact someone mentioned muscled on here we checked it.

he has epsm iirc

 

[BBP]

Haven't red everything so excuse me if I'm barking up the wrong tree. Have you checked bloods and muscle enzymes?

After seeing videos of lame some horses are with PSSM and muscle issues, sometimes its one leg, then all legs, the front leg. It may well be worth checking the bloods. My gelding literally couldn't canter until he was supplemented Vitamin E and protein, bloods showed significant muscle damage.. prior to this we spent nearly 15k and was no better off scanning and x-raying, it was the fact someone mentioned muscled on here we checked it.

No not the wrong tree at all, it’s a good shout. He has RER (different to PSSM in that it’s a calcium regulation issue rather than linked to glycogen) which definitely causes some lameness issues some days. I can usually tell those days as his whole body is like a brick and the most you will get from him is a western jog type shuffle or a wild gallop, nothing in between. But in the videos in this link, although he is lame, he is sort of loose and lame rather than tight and lame if that makes sense? His stride is freer even if it isn’t right. He was diagnosed by biopsy about 5 years ago before Equiseq had developed all their genetic tests, as he had elevated blood markers. Good point though as I need to get him back on his vitamin E having run out.

 

[shortstuff99]

No not the wrong tree at all, it’s a good shout. He has RER (different to PSSM in that it’s a calcium regulation issue rather than linked to glycogen) which definitely causes some lameness issues some days. I can usually tell those days as his whole body is like a brick and the most you will get from him is a western jog type shuffle or a wild gallop, nothing in between. But in the videos in this link, although he is lame, he is sort of loose and lame rather than tight and lame if that makes sense? His stride is freer even if it isn’t right. He was diagnosed by biopsy about 5 years ago before Equiseq had developed all their genetic tests, as he had elevated blood markers. Good point though as I need to get him back on his vitamin E having run out.

I know he's Spanish but what is he crossed with?

Also is there a possibility of him being hypermobile?

 

[ester]

Section B

(can you tell I'm a BBP fan )

 

[BBP]

Section B

(can you tell I'm a BBP fan )

Someone has to be!?
Yep 3/4 PRE, 1/4 welsh B.

The body worker did comment the other day that some of his joints feel loose. Also said the left stifle was a little more crunchy than the right.

 

[BBP]

I had missed the rolls on this vid, it surprised me that he's purely pushing off his hocks to try and get up not from lower down.

He is, isn’t he? He’s pushing off the point of the hock. Good spot.

 

[shortstuff99]

Someone has to be!?
Yep 3/4 PRE, 1/4 welsh B.

The body worker did comment the other day that some of his joints feel loose. Also said the left stifle was a little more crunchy than the right.

I wonder if his joints aren't stable and that's why he gets up the way he does and why his fetlocks drop so much. It would be something I would consider.

 

[tristar]

the left hind fetlock seems to go lower than the right when trotting, he seems to have more difficulty with the left hind when getting up

 

[BBP]

Just found these from about 8 years ago, it seems he has always dropped quite low when moving (not that I had ever noticed).

 

[BBP]

 

[Caol Ila]

What I noticed about your rolling compilation in the other thread is that he seems to anticipate pain or discomfort. On every clip, he puts his front legs out, pauses, thinks about it, then rolls again, and then he says, 'I guess I gotta man up and do it' and staggers to his feet. My totally amateur opinion is that it's neck or back. Most horses put their forelegs out straight and use their head and neck as a lever to help get the hind end up. BBP seems as though he's unwilling or unable to do that, and he's kind of rocking himself with the front legs.

 

[BBP]

What I noticed about your rolling compilation in the other thread is that he seems to anticipate pain or discomfort. On every clip, he puts his front legs out, pauses, thinks about it, then rolls again, and then he says, 'I guess I gotta man up and do it' and staggers to his feet. My totally amateur opinion is that it's neck or back. Most horses put their forelegs out straight and use their head and neck as a lever to help get the hind end up. BBP seems as though he's unwilling or unable to do that, and he's kind of rocking himself with the front legs.

Perhaps that is why he comes so upright, it’s maybe not that he doesn’t want to lock out front legs and put weight in the heel but more that he wants to use the bent leg to pull and claw himself upright to avoid having to push behind or throw his head down.

 

[Caol Ila]

I looked at your video again with that in mind. He seems *very* reluctant to lower his head. If you look at the videos of the other horses, they thrust their head and neck down and out from the withers pretty vigorously in order to push the hind end upwards. Even the older, arthritic ones like Alf get their hind end up fairly easily by doing this. Your guy holds his head upright as much as he can, and like you say, he's clawing himself to his feet while using his head and neck as little as possible. Most of the time, he manages but when he nearly decked it in the first clip, it looked like the foot knucked over and he couldn't use his head and neck as leverage to catch it, the way most horses do when they stumble.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Good point though as I need to get him back on his vitamin E having run out.

We suspect mine may have RER - awaiting tests. If he definitely has RER, vitamin E will help, although i do see what you mean by 'loose lameness'. Join PSSM Awareness on Facebook, someone said a few days ago calcium/limestone flour can help horses with RER so may be worth trying that as well..

A lady was saying how lameness especially suspensory issues are very common they're now seeing on horses with muscle problems, such as RER. Mine had a suspensory issue, and now we've found he has a muscle problem. Could be worth looking at but its all expensive. Its because the joints and ligaments take the strain, due to them not using their muscles correctly

 

[Hormonal Filly]

DSLD was possible,

After seeing the dropped fetlocks I second this, the dropping can be conformation which looks to be the case if hes always done it but can easily be related to DSLD..

 

[BBP]

After seeing the dropped fetlocks I second this, the dropping can be conformation which looks to be the case if hes always done it but can easily be related to DSLD..

It certainly doesn’t seem to have deteriorated in 8 years, in that when he stands there is no drop at all, so hopefully not degenerative.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

It certainly doesn’t seem to have deteriorated in 8 years, in that when he stands there is no drop at all, so hopefully not degenerative.

There was a gorgeous young gelding the other day on the Suspensory group, he had low fetlocks and had only recently gone lame and they discovered DSLD which they said was conformation related. Just was a idea, may not be related.

 

[splashgirl45]

i am going against what some have said and would first focus on the off fore, he doesnt want to land on the heel and that is very noticable when he tries to get up. how does he get up if he has boots on? you say he moves better in front with boots ....yes he may be hypermobile as well but i think i would check out that front first...may not be so expensive...

 

[indie1282]

As I have suggested before.......I would start with the neck....it needs to be done by someone experienced in interpreting cervical radiographs. ...that looks so typical of weakness and variable awareness of hind limb, plus careful use of forelimb which tie in with pressure on the spinal cord in the neck region.
Basically in the neck, the hindlimb nerves are on the outside of the "bundle". ...so their functioning is affected first. The real time video shows hindlimb being slightly left out the back each stride..possibly due to slow neurological transmission. The forelimb is taking the strain more to stabilise.

To put it at its simplest...there are signs that the hindlimbs are not working properly....there are signs that the forelimbs could be involved.....now you could have multiple issues, but it is more likely that they derive from one source...the neck.

I have seen horses getting up from rolling like that before.....it was proven to be neck in both cases.

I agree. Imo the whole horse doesn't look right sadly. The hinds are trailing further out each time and he isn't extending his forelegs which could all stem from the neck. I would do a neck X Ray first to rule that out.