Lami?

[superpony]

My welsh x has had laminitis in the past - approximately 4 years ago, since then we have carefully managed him. He gets exercised nearly every day. He was also diagnosed with EMS (equine metabolic syndrome) last November and is now on 10 metaformin tablets a day. He isn't overweight either although I would like him abit thinner ideally.

He came in from the field today and didn't seem 100% right, trotted up and he is slightly lame on one of his front feet. I could also feel his pulse in his front legs but not his back. Put his muzzle on (much to his disgust!!!!) this afternoon and put him back out, his pulse seems slower this evening. Measured it at one pulse every 2 and half seconds. Is that normal? This morning he was also footy on the stones, he is slightly anyway as he is barefoot but seemed worse than normal.

Does this sound like the starting of laminitis to people?

Thank you.

 

[doodleberry]

My welsh x has had laminitis in the past - approximately 4 years ago, since then we have carefully managed him. He gets exercised nearly every day. He was also diagnosed with EMS (equine metabolic syndrome) last November and is now on 10 metaformin tablets a day. He isn't overweight either although I would like him abit thinner ideally.

He came in from the field today and didn't seem 100% right, trotted up and he is slightly lame on one of his front feet. I could also feel his pulse in his front legs but not his back. Put his muzzle on (much to his disgust!!!!) this afternoon and put him back out, his pulse seems slower this evening. Measured it at one pulse every 2 and half seconds. Is that normal? This morning he was also footy on the stones, he is slightly anyway as he is barefoot but seemed worse than normal.

Does this sound like the starting of laminitis to people?

Thank you.

i had a similar situation on fri i have a fatty who is a hunter and kind of out or the summer i have been riding her 3 times a week to try and avoid being too fat and laminitis!! anyway i have only really been riding in walk and in a straight line on fri she went in the school for a trot round and we saw that she was slightly short and lame on the turn on off fore i could feel a pulse in that leg laminitis pulses are usually watery if that makes sense , anyway as i couldn't decide if she defo did have laminitis i have treated her for that as it seems the most likely!! so got her in for the night gave her a bute turned her out in the school for a bit sat morn got her in for a few hours while i went to work turned her back out in the school 1 bute again and d-tox soaked hay turned her out in the school again this morn no pulse she has been wondering around all day and this has helped i think if we suspect laminitis treat for laminitis as its not worth being wrong about i dont agree with keeping them in unless they cant walk because i feel they need to walk around to create a blood flow to the foot and i find that if you have acces to a school that is the best as they are a bit bored so they wander around i have just ordered a muzzle for the mare and she has an orchard she can go into but as i am now sooo paranoid about it i am afraid her days of nice grass are over till the winter anyway sorry to rant on i hope yours is ok but its better to be safe than sorry especially if you know for sure yours has had it b4 i dont know with mijne as we only got her last summer x

 

[cptrayes]

My welsh x has had laminitis in the past - approximately 4 years ago, since then we have carefully managed him. He gets exercised nearly every day. He was also diagnosed with EMS (equine metabolic syndrome) last November and is now on 10 metaformin tablets a day. He isn't overweight either although I would like him abit thinner ideally.

He came in from the field today and didn't seem 100% right, trotted up and he is slightly lame on one of his front feet. I could also feel his pulse in his front legs but not his back. Put his muzzle on (much to his disgust!!!!) this afternoon and put him back out, his pulse seems slower this evening. Measured it at one pulse every 2 and half seconds. Is that normal? This morning he was also footy on the stones, he is slightly anyway as he is barefoot but seemed worse than normal.

Does this sound like the starting of laminitis to people?

Thank you.

Being barefoot is not a reason to be footie on stones, unless the horse is very new to being without shoes. If he is constantly footie then I would guess that he is probably always very slightly laminitic, irrespective of the meds you have him on. Some of these horses can only be managed barefoot by completely removing grass from their diet.

In taking his digital pulse it is not his heart rate that you should be worrying about, it is the fact that you can feel a digital pulse at all, and the strength of it. The presence of the pulse is the big warning sign, not the speed.

In answer to your question, in view of his history and the time of year, I'd put money on him having early stage laminitis.

 

[doodleberry]

Being barefoot is not a reason to be footie on stones, unless the horse is very new to being without shoes. If he is constantly footie then I would guess that he is probably always very slightly laminitic, irrespective of the meds you have him on. Some of these horses can only be managed barefoot by completely removing grass from their diet.

In taking his digital pulse it is not his heart rate that you should be worrying about, it is the fact that you can feel a digital pulse at all, and the strength of it. The presence of the pulse is the big warning sign, not the speed.

In answer to your question, in view of his history and the time of year, I'd put money on him having early stage laminitis.

cptrayes are you a vet? you sound like one!! or very experienced anyway either way can i pick your brains if you read my post about my horse she didnt have a digital pulse earlier when she was in the school but just been out to skip out etc and she has a pulse and a bit if heat in the foot!! i have the vet coming tom and so not sure weather to give her a bute tonight will that mask her discomfort or what??? annabel sorry for butting in on your post!!!

 

[doodleberry]

cptrayes are you a vet? you sound like one!! or very experienced anyway either way can i pick your brains if you read my post about my horse she didnt have a digital pulse earlier when she was in the school but just been out to skip out etc and she has a pulse and a bit if heat in the foot!! i have the vet coming tom and so not sure weather to give her a bute tonight will that mask her discomfort or what??? annabel sorry for butting in on your post!!!

sorry not vet tom farriar!!

 

[NOISYGIRL]

IMO Laminitis should be treated with urgency, it is very painful, if you are not sure you should call the vet asap

 

[cptrayes]

Personally I would never bute a horse until I am sure what is causing its pain. Diagnosis of a buted horse is very difficult!

No I'm not a vet, I'm a nosy cow and I have an almost photographic memory. And I have stabled horses in 60 horse livery yards and every time one of them got ill I hung around over the vets' shoulders asking questions until they told me to beggar off I'm gobsmacked that a friend of mine is having injections into her horses joints and does not even know what chemical they are injecting, I just couldn't bear not to know!!!

If you have a pulse and heat in ONE foot it is more likely to be an abscess. Some horses have a "signature" foot for laminitis which will go first, but abscesses are more common and the symptoms are pretty much the same to start with.

Noisygirl laminitis is "inflammation of the laminae", not a disease as such but a symptom, which can be very slight, or very severe. (Dietary laminitis is a disease of the gut, passing bugs through the gut wall, not a disease of the feet, which are just reacting to what the gut is sending into the bloodstream, which is why it is treated by changing the diet.). The poster's horse's laminitis (if it has it) is very slight and not a medical emergency ....... but it might become one if she does not heed the warning signs.

 

[doodleberry]

Personally I would never bute a horse until I am sure what is causing its pain. Diagnosis of a buted horse is very difficult!

No I'm not a vet, I'm a nosy cow and I have an almost photographic memory. And I have stabled horses in 60 horse livery yards and every time one of them got ill I hung around over the vets' shoulders asking questions until they told me to beggar off I'm gobsmacked that a friend of mine is having injections into her horses joints and does not even know what chemical they are injecting, I just couldn't bear not to know!!!

If you have a pulse and heat in ONE foot it is more likely to be an abscess. Some horses have a "signature" foot for laminitis which will go first, but abscesses are more common and the symptoms are pretty much the same to start with.

Noisygirl laminitis is "inflammation of the laminae", not a disease as such but a symptom, which can be very slight, or very severe. (Dietary laminitis is a disease of the gut, passing bugs through the gut wall, not a disease of the feet, which are just reacting to what the gut is sending into the bloodstream, which is why it is treated by changing the diet.). The poster's horse's laminitis (if it has it) is very slight and not a medical emergency ....... but it might become one if she does not heed the warning signs.

ha ha nosy knickers! yes but as it was the weekend i did speak to vet fri night and as i had thought laminitis it seemed a sensible thing to do but i know what your saying had farrier out this morning he reckoned she had stood on a stone as she has thin soles and laminitis is usually both feet! phew!! this makes sense as after thinking about she didnt really seem to be in any distress or pain rally but glad i was a bit ovefr cautious i have turfed her out into orchard and muzzle should arrive tom so am going to be extra careful she is also being schooled tom to make sure she is ok obviously we will stopif not ok but fingers crossed false alarm and how fantastic to have a photographic memory it really helps thank you xx

 

[Tyra]

Small warning: laminitis on one foot is less rare than you would think, according to a specialist clinic/farriercombi, 20% of all cases involve one foot. Though an abcess is more likely, just don't rule lami out. I did, and the result was a much longer period of trouble.

 

[cptrayes]

I have one that goes on one foot first myself, but I had no idea the incidence was that high. Mine has a big scar on the "signature foot" and I always wondered if that had anything to do with it. Did yours have anything odd about the foot that went Tyra? And did they reckon it was diet, concussion, or something else? (Just being nosy again here )

 

[superpony]

Thanks everyone, really appreciate your advice. doodleberry glad your horse is ok.

Well little update - hes being muzzled through the day and a small paddock at night. He is still slightly lame and footy on the hard ground, but lunged him today in the school and he is really lame on a circle especially anti-clockwise so thats worrying...

Just hope i've caught it early enough.

 

[NOISYGIRL]

Personally I would never bute a horse until I am sure what is causing its pain. Diagnosis of a buted horse is very difficult!

No I'm not a vet, I'm a nosy cow and I have an almost photographic memory. And I have stabled horses in 60 horse livery yards and every time one of them got ill I hung around over the vets' shoulders asking questions until they told me to beggar off I'm gobsmacked that a friend of mine is having injections into her horses joints and does not even know what chemical they are injecting, I just couldn't bear not to know!!!

If you have a pulse and heat in ONE foot it is more likely to be an abscess. Some horses have a "signature" foot for laminitis which will go first, but abscesses are more common and the symptoms are pretty much the same to start with.

Noisygirl laminitis is "inflammation of the laminae", not a disease as such but a symptom, which can be very slight, or very severe. (Dietary laminitis is a disease of the gut, passing bugs through the gut wall, not a disease of the feet, which are just reacting to what the gut is sending into the bloodstream, which is why it is treated by changing the diet.). The poster's horse's laminitis (if it has it) is very slight and not a medical emergency ....... but it might become one if she does not heed the warning signs.

I know, my horse has had it hence my comments ! If she is not aware what type of lami then IMO it is urgent if the horse/pony needs pain relief, unless you have xray eyes you wouldn't know if there was any rotation of the pedal bone

 

[NOISYGIRL]

Small warning: laminitis on one foot is less rare than you would think, according to a specialist clinic/farriercombi, 20% of all cases involve one foot. Though an abcess is more likely, just don't rule lami out. I did, and the result was a much longer period of trouble.

Exactly, always best to be safe than sorry

 

[doodleberry]

Exactly, always best to be safe than sorry

yes thats interesting i did have farriar out on mon who said the same but reckoned she had stepped on a stone as thin soles!!! and being realistic she wasnt really in any pain or discomfort and was charging around yesterday swearing at the horse in the school so i dont reckon it was laminitis as surely shwe would be in pain and discomfort and only she only had 2 bute 1 fri night and one sat morn and shes a big girl!! she is being ridden tonight so we will soon see xx

 

[NOISYGIRL]

yes thats interesting i did have farriar out on mon who said the same but reckoned she had stepped on a stone as thin soles!!! and being realistic she wasnt really in any pain or discomfort and was charging around yesterday swearing at the horse in the school so i dont reckon it was laminitis as surely shwe would be in pain and discomfort and only she only had 2 bute 1 fri night and one sat morn and shes a big girl!! she is being ridden tonight so we will soon see xx

Hiya, yes I meant just in general, wasn't having a go.

I was treating my horse once for twisting his fetlock with his arthritis, he was lame etc etc, I'd seen him do it so knew it wasn't lami, turned out when I next had the farrier, when he'd done his larking around in the field he'd prob stept on a stone, he'd had a foot infection, I fealt like a bad mummy !

 

[doodleberry]

Hiya, yes I meant just in general, wasn't having a go.

I was treating my horse once for twisting his fetlock with his arthritis, he was lame etc etc, I'd seen him do it so knew it wasn't lami, turned out when I next had the farrier, when he'd done his larking around in the field he'd prob stept on a stone, he'd had a foot infection, I fealt like a bad mummy !

hiya didnt for one minute think you were having a go lol you have to live and learn though and if we never experience anything we never learn horse ok now and usually foot infections they are are a lot lamer than mine was x

 

[Lotty]

Small warning: laminitis on one foot is less rare than you would think, according to a specialist clinic/farriercombi, 20% of all cases involve one foot. Though an abcess is more likely, just don't rule lami out. I did, and the result was a much longer period of trouble.

I agree

My mare got lami in one foot last year.

 

[Tyra]

I have one that goes on one foot first myself, but I had no idea the incidence was that high. Mine has a big scar on the "signature foot" and I always wondered if that had anything to do with it. Did yours have anything odd about the foot that went Tyra? And did they reckon it was diet, concussion, or something else? (Just being nosy again here )

No scars here. What kind of scar do you mean exactly?

In our case, it can't have been diet, and although she had lami four years ago (for no apparent reason, not fat, nor IR, no Cushings) vet thinks it's concussion this time.

 

[cptrayes]

A scar that runs around half the back of his foot where he tried to hack it off in the lorry window when he was imported. I still travel him tied down, or he takes the windows out!

I suspect it makes his foot more liable to concussion because it reduces that effectiveness of the lateral cartilage that it runs right across the top of. He got laminitis in it after bolting with me on a road for a mile. He's a character

 

[Allover]

Well this has saved me starting a thread i hope!!!

I have a few questions, it has been years since i have dealt with a lami case and though hoping this is not the case with one of mine it does not hurt to ask the questions (if you will be so good as to answer them!!!)

If a horse is in the early stages of laminitis will the feet be hot?

Will the pulse to the foot go down when she is turned out?

Do they always have the laminitc stance when standing?

Thanks

 

[cptrayes]

The answers to your questions are:

They might, they might not.

It might, it might not.

No.


Hope that helps !

There are shades of laminitis. At the lowest level, a barefoot horse will feel stones this week that it did not feel last week. At the highest, the horse will be crippled and unable to move. In between there are pulses, hot feet, feet-forward stances, shortened strides, sore feet and you may have some, all or none. Confusing isn't it?

 

[Allover]

Ummmm no but thanks anyway

I am hoping it is not lami obviously, she has no history as far as i am aware BUT she is overweight, though she is not as big as she was because she has started working.

 

[Tyra]

@cptrayes: Sounds plausible, about the scarred foot. Some damage may have been done to the soft tissue, or, and this is maybe more likely, to the small bloodvessels in the foot. Another consequence of damage to vessels is the so called 'cold-induced' laminitis, circulation failure (contraction of vessels) that causes laminitis, especially in cold weather, when circulation is not optimal due to the low temperature.

 

[superpony]

Little bit of an update.. he is still not right, so the vet is coming tomorrow. With his past history thought it was better to be safe than sorry!

And allover - from my exprience of it (which is quite limited) if she is overweight and standing in a laminitic stance I would be concerned, can you cut her food/grass down and exercise her more?

 

[tristar]

horses i have known with lami vary so greatly in what they do, some never make the classic stance, some lie down, some early stage will walk like they are sore footed.

i think its best to act as if they have it if in doubt, and put indoors on soft bedding, soaked restricted hay 4 times a day and exercise twice a day with caution to see the progression and as soon as poss turn out in small barish paddock and consult with the vet if not rapid improvement, and long term get rid of the cresty necks and monitor the weight of any suspect animals daily, restrict the grazing to 1 hour morning and evening or in spring especially keep on a barish paddock till the peak protein time has passed - after mid june july

any horse with drastic symptoms needs the vet immediately

 

[Allover]

Had the vet up thismorning as she was very sore on her pins and it is laminitis

She is not standing in the classic stance and not lying down more, as she was coming back into work from having a very bad back (and winter here is a write off for at least 3 months as we have no indoor) she is only doing in hand walk with a bit of trot work. She was starting to lose weight aswel.

I am so angry with myself at the moment i want to cry!

She has had a blood thinnning drug and a pain killer and vet will be back sunday. I am soaking her hay and hosing her feet every 1-2hours for 10 mins which seems to be helping and the pulse is not as strong as thismorning, i presume she is walking better because of the painkillers.

Should i be hopefull that she did not respond to the hoof testers yesterday when the farrier was here?

We also have clover in her paddock (i looked at the seed analysis and it should be 16% though was planted a few years ago and may be higher than that now) so i am thinking that this may also be a contributing factor?

Ahhhhhh

 

[Tyra]

That's bad news, but don't blame yourself! The fact that she did not respond to hooftesters may mean that it's a bit less severe than it could be. My horse only responded when she was very, very laminitic, four years ago. During the current set-back in the last couple of months she's never responded to pressure on the sole.

The clover may have contributed, better have it removed, if possible.

For the time being the right steps have been taken, soaked hay, painkiller is NSAID, I presume? Instead of cooling with water, you could use 'cold-packs', change feet every two hours. It works wonderfully for my horse.

 

[tristar]

sorry allover, but don't worry too much, most non severe lami cn be got rid of and never come back with good management, i would keep her feet on some deep bedding at mo when she's in, those stable equimats are ideal, no standing by the stable door on concrete, and i believe all the little things you do will help, test lameness by walking trotting on a hard surface in a straight line, and by lunging on a soft surface in circles, not while she's very lame but as a test of the progression of the sensitivity and lameness as she recovers, we all have these things happen, but that's horses!

 

[Allover]

Bless her, all she wants to do is go in the field and her field buddy is completely wound up with the fact his girl is not there with him. The other horses are not important in his opinion, and as he is 36 i do not like him being stressy!!!!

Blood results came back thismorning and they are fairly positive, protien levels elevated but not too bad and white bc count down but they are not showing a massive inflammatory response, and the pulses to her feet are much improved.

Tyra, i have to blame myself, its my job

Thanks all

 

[cptrayes]

Can you leave him in with her, in the same box? It may help both of them. If they get on well, lack of space shouldn't bee too much of a problem unless they can't even turn round

You have been watchful and caught it early. Well done, don't beat yourself up.