Laminitis 😔

Twohorses

Active Member
Joined
9 January 2019
Messages
123
My words were "extended use" --- use of bute past the intolerable threshold of acute pain. Some people get carried away with the use of pain killers and feed them when they aren't really needed:)

My point was to alert the OP to not plan on keeping the horse on bute forever, under the guise of making him feel better.

There is a product called Equiox (or the dog version called Previcox) that we use. They are identical products, work every bit as well as bute, and are not nearly as brutal on the stomach as bute:)

FWIW, it was ME who questioned the vet about PTS'ng my horse due to the pain of founder --- I was not about to let the horse (regardless of the bute he was on and icing his hooves 2X/daily) to needlessly go on, if there was no hope. It was the lameness vet who said the horse still had plenty of fight in his eyes and to give him a few months. Those few months were up in November, 2012 -- the horse had made a remarkable turnaround, developed ulcers from the long term use of bute, and we still live with ulcer flare ups, even though he is running and bucking around his pasture because his hooves are packed in EquiPak:)

Everything I have posted is based on my own experience with my IR horse. He will live with the ramifications of serious founder for the rest of his life. Which I never thought he would make it coming seven years, he will be 24 in August. Every day he greets me with his ears forward & eyes bright is a gift but it has been a grueling & expensive road to recovery. He would be rideable for very light hacks if I could still ride.

IMHO, getting hung up on the bute portion of this thread should not be the main issue --- figuring out what works to de-rotate the coffin bones, develop a strict diet plan, method/hours of turnout time should be foremost.

While ^^^^that varies from horse-to-to since the key word is metabolism, the bottom line is frequent trims by a farrier who specializes in corrective work, a good lameness vet, a diet with the lowest NSC value possible yet still gives the horse all the needed vitamins/minerals.

Also FWIW, horses are not safe from founder or laminitis in the winter. One can Google "cold weather laminitis" and get any number of scholarly and scary articles regarding the subject.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
9,467
Location
Northampton
Of course they arent safe from laminitis in the winter. Who said they were? But you really do have to ask why you are keeping a horse in such pain going. Is it for them? The answer to that always has to be no. They have no comprehension of life span. They live in the now. When the now is agonising pain, and the future is a limited life of constant restriction, then you have to question if its acceptable to carry on.

Only 30% of horses recover once the pedal bone sinks. That means 70% dont make it. I dont know, but I'd imagine the odds are worse in heavy, cobby types. Its certainly what my vet told me.

Previcox isnt licenced in the UK for horses so isnt an option, or at least wasnt a couple of years ago when I last looked at horse painkillers. Mine had to have something so strong that he could only take it for a limited period or he would damage his liver and kidneys. He was still dog lame. That is how painful laminitis is.
 
Joined
31 October 2018
Messages
38
Right so here's where I'm at. I've spoken to the vet and we are going to 're do blood tests. There's no point fighting a battle if I've not got all the evidence. I'm not getting him shod with heartbars again as 1. They havent made a difference
2. I'm actually beginning to wonder if that's why his feet have gotten worse.
I feel he may stand a better chance of recovery if his feet are trimmed every 4 weeks but left natural. Hes on a deep straw bed as hes a mucky bugger and i would be a bag of shavings a day (which realistically i cant afford, it's barley straw so won't do him any harm if he has a munch) I've messaged a barefoot farrier who specialises in laminitis and will hopefully have him look when he returns from his trip.
I may well be making the wrong decision for my boy but his chances of recovery are slim to none so at this point it's worth trying anything possible.

Long term if I can get him back to any kind of soundness I plan on making a track around my field and also killing all the grass off in approximately 1/2 acre so he's got a bare paddock i can feed hay in when need be. He will be out in the day and I'm at night all year round. His field mate will be on inside of track and outside bare paddock for company. Still can't upload bloody photos argh
 

ester

Not slacking-multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
46,718
Location
Cambridge
I don't think 4 people/posts of 61 is people getting 'hung up on bute'.

The VMD site is broke so can't tell if the situation re equioxx has altered.

OP have you considered imprints? I ask that as a usual barefoot advocate BTW.
 

holeymoley

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 November 2012
Messages
2,074
Op I think that is a reasonable course of action. What about pads for a bit once you get the shoes off? Mine had pads and frog supports initially for 6/7weeks.
 
Joined
31 October 2018
Messages
38
I will discuss pads with farrier and see what he says. Don't think there is anything else I can do.
He's a happy smiley boy shouting for breakfast, dinner and hay moving around his stable fairly comfortably at the moment.
 
Joined
31 October 2018
Messages
38
Thanks for the information. I will order some and get them in asap. He doesn't have shoes on at the moment as farrier was reluctant to show when he was so sore. He's coming back on Friday so will discuss options with him then x
 

holeymoley

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 November 2012
Messages
2,074
Mine were quick ones made by the vet- basically lteeth imprint clay you get for getting a mould of your tooth(sorry can’t think of what it’s called) that was put round and over the frog to mould to its shape and then spongey foam type stuff that was cut to the shape of his hoof. Then placed on the underside and wrapped with duck tape. After 7 weeks they were pretty grim inside!
 

windand rain

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 November 2012
Messages
4,510
My vet made some out of an old foam backed carpet we had lying around they worked brilliantly. Now my first aid is the duck tape nappies to all four feet until the vet arrives it supplies support while still being slightly breathable
 

Pearlsasinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 February 2009
Messages
23,613
Location
W. Yorks
A straw bed will not be very supportive, the usual advice for laminitis is a deep shaving bed. I am sorry you and your horse are going through this but tbh, I would call it a day now. What quality of life has he got now? Or is he likely to have in the future? It is very rare for a heavy horse to recover from sinking pedal bones. I think your vet and farrier are doing you a dis-service by not being very frank with you about the prognosis.
 
Last edited:

Nari

Well-Known Member
Joined
27 September 2005
Messages
2,436
The only thing I would say, having dealt with a big horse with rotation & sinking, is to get some supports on asap because a straw bed isn't enough (to be honest I'm not convinced any type of bedding is enough with a big heavyweight). There are various types of supports that can be fitted without shoes so be guided by your farrier who should also fit them to make sure they're right (plus if he's sore the chances are you won't be able to) but we always went for a type that supported the whole sole & they were taped firmly in place so that they conformed to the sole rather than moving around giving uneven support. I'd be ringing the farrier first thing in the morning, if I'm honest I'm shocked he's left him with no support.

If your vet & farrier aren't ready to give up then they must feel there's a chance. Sole can thicken below even a dropped pedal bone, and nowadays the view is that sole depth is as much or more of a factor than degree of rotation.
 

holeymoley

Well-Known Member
Joined
18 November 2012
Messages
2,074
It looks as if not only he has rotation but twisting too? My boy has had this too.

I’m afraid I disagree with pearlsasinger on this one. I spoke to my vet about pts and he didn’t think it was time so if you really trust your vet and your boy still has spark I would go with them. What age is your guy op?

I don’t think straw is the best bed for them, you need something that will really support and mould to the hoof. I use nedzbeds and small flake shavings. Sawdust/wood pellets might be better.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
9,467
Location
Northampton
With mine he had a massive shavings bed. Both my vet and the second opinion vet said no to pads. I cant remember why now as it was all such a horrible blur, but they definitely said not to. He was trimmed to xray with vet and farrier there a few times and then we tried remedial shoeing. He did improve briefly then went back to how he was. Mine was also bright in himself and a happy little pony. Thats what made it so hard. Mentally he was fine, he just kind of dragged the worst leg around like it wasnt really part of him, right foot in his case as well.

Once the pedal bone got to the stage your xrays show I managed to catch him in his stable when he thought no one was around, and he was head down miserable. He perked up when he saw me but that was it for me.

Its so hard when you are living it. Even afterwards I felt horribly guilty for a long time. But now on reflection I wish I'd called time much, much sooner.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
9,467
Location
Northampton
If your vet & farrier aren't ready to give up then they must feel there's a chance. Sole can thicken below even a dropped pedal bone, and nowadays the view is that sole depth is as much or more of a factor than degree of rotation.
My vet was happy to carry on indefinitely. He said he had had pedal bones come through the sole and they had recovered. That was not something I ever wanted to be responsible for any animal going through.
 

Twohorses

Active Member
Joined
9 January 2019
Messages
123
Of course they arent safe from laminitis in the winter. Who said they were? But you really do have to ask why you are keeping a horse in such pain going. Is it for them? The answer to that always has to be no. They have no comprehension of life span. They live in the now. When the now is agonising pain, and the future is a limited life of constant restriction, then you have to question if its acceptable to carry on.

Only 30% of horses recover once the pedal bone sinks. That means 70% dont make it. I dont know, but I'd imagine the odds are worse in heavy, cobby types. Its certainly what my vet told me.

Previcox isnt licenced in the UK for horses so isnt an option, or at least wasnt a couple of years ago when I last looked at horse painkillers. Mine had to have something so strong that he could only take it for a limited period or he would damage his liver and kidneys. He was still dog lame. That is how painful laminitis is.
1. You would be surprised the people who think their horse is safe from founder when winter gets here.

2. I do not recall saying my IR horse is currently in pain. His hooves are not as healthy as they once were but he is not in pain. He sees the vet 2-4 yearly for evaluation and blood work. His pedal bone(s) did not sink. He was severely rotated but he did not sink.

3. Does this look like a horse in pain? This was August, 2018 on his 23rd Bday. Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I stated it was me who asked the vet about PTS'no him when he foundered in 2012 and the vet said to wait a few months. Good thing I did -- he looks pretty happy in this foto:)
 

Attachments

Pearlsasinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 February 2009
Messages
23,613
Location
W. Yorks
My vet was happy to carry on indefinitely. He said he had had pedal bones come through the sole and they had recovered. That was not something I ever wanted to be responsible for any animal going through.

Some vets don't know when to call time, others don't care so long as you are paying for their time.
I used to have a very nice small animal vet, who removed my elderly cat's eye. The wound was extremely slow to heal and the cat lived in the bathroom with a cone on to stop her scratching. The cat went for tests to find out why the wound wasn't healing properly and the vet told me over the phone that she had heart problems and fluid on her lungs. I asked if we should make the decision to pts. Vet said no we can treat it and prescribed tablets. Cat had always hated taking tablets and was no keener on these. After 3 months living in the bathroom with no improvement I eventually had her pts and have always wished that I had insisted that day of the phone call. The same vet was almost in tears when pts a different young cat with a terminal condition. He just didn't like that aspect of his job.
 

ester

Not slacking-multitasking
Joined
31 December 2008
Messages
46,718
Location
Cambridge
1. You would be surprised the people who think their horse is safe from founder when winter gets here.

2. I do not recall saying my IR horse is currently in pain. His hooves are not as healthy as they once were but he is not in pain. He sees the vet 2-4 yearly for evaluation and blood work. His pedal bone(s) did not sink. He was severely rotated but he did not sink.

3. Does this look like a horse in pain? This was August, 2018 on his 23rd Bday. Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I stated it was me who asked the vet about PTS'no him when he foundered in 2012 and the vet said to wait a few months. Good thing I did -- he looks pretty happy in this foto:)
It might be helpful to know that in the UK the term founder is only used if the pedal bone penetrates the sole, we use laminitis otherwise but I know in other countries founder is used for nonpenetrating cases.
 

Leo Walker

Well-Known Member
Joined
19 July 2013
Messages
9,467
Location
Northampton
1. You would be surprised the people who think their horse is safe from founder when winter gets here.

2. I do not recall saying my IR horse is currently in pain. His hooves are not as healthy as they once were but he is not in pain. He sees the vet 2-4 yearly for evaluation and blood work. His pedal bone(s) did not sink. He was severely rotated but he did not sink.

3. Does this look like a horse in pain? This was August, 2018 on his 23rd Bday. Perhaps you missed the part of my post where I stated it was me who asked the vet about PTS'no him when he foundered in 2012 and the vet said to wait a few months. Good thing I did -- he looks pretty happy in this foto:)
This isn't your post and my comments weren't about your horse being in pain now :rolleyes: in fact I'd go so far as to say that your horse being fine now is irrelevant. Rotation can be corrected. in the majority of cases sinking cannot, and the OP is dealing with sinking in a big heavy horse. The same way that recommending bute is stopped isn't helpful or relevant. The OP is a long way from even considering that. Shes at crisis point with a horse in a lot of pain.

Its a godawful situation to be in. it was made much harder for me by reading posts like yours and believing all horses can be saved and recover. They cant. It was an awful shock to me when I read the stats and faced up to the reality. If I'd known earlier then I would have been better placed to make hard decisions. My horse looked very happy and well, but that doesn't mean he wasn't in pain and suffering. You need to balance how much you are prepared to put them through and what the prognosis is.

I really, really, really, really hope the OPs lovely horses does recover, but if they dont its not from lack of trying. Sometimes really wanting something to be just isn't enough.
 

OldNag

Well-Known Member
Joined
23 July 2011
Messages
6,408
Location
Somewhere south of the middle
It's a really difficult. We lost one in similar circumstances to yours, was doing really well and then suddenly started dropping so we did call it a day. Having nursed another through recurrent attacks too, I now would firmly look at quality of life over quantity. If you think he wouldn't be happy on the sort of regime you'll realistically need, then there might not be much of an option. I really feel for you, laminitis is an awful condition. Fingers and everything crossed that he does come right x
 

Pinkvboots

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 August 2010
Messages
8,998
Location
Hertfordshire
Thanks for the information. I will order some and get them in asap. He doesn't have shoes on at the moment as farrier was reluctant to show when he was so sore. He's coming back on Friday so will discuss options with him then x
If his still in pain he shouldn't be shod or be trimmed, my horse was in foot support pads for 2 months and was almost sound until her feet were trimmed and shod.
 

Pinkvboots

Well-Known Member
Joined
25 August 2010
Messages
8,998
Location
Hertfordshire
This isn't your post and my comments weren't about your horse being in pain now :rolleyes: in fact I'd go so far as to say that your horse being fine now is irrelevant. Rotation can be corrected. in the majority of cases sinking cannot, and the OP is dealing with sinking in a big heavy horse. The same way that recommending bute is stopped isn't helpful or relevant. The OP is a long way from even considering that. Shes at crisis point with a horse in a lot of pain.

Its a godawful situation to be in. it was made much harder for me by reading posts like yours and believing all horses can be saved and recover. They cant. It was an awful shock to me when I read the stats and faced up to the reality. If I'd known earlier then I would have been better placed to make hard decisions. My horse looked very happy and well, but that doesn't mean he wasn't in pain and suffering. You need to balance how much you are prepared to put them through and what the prognosis is.

I really, really, really, really hope the OPs lovely horses does recover, but if they dont its not from lack of trying. Sometimes really wanting something to be just isn't enough.

This is so true my mare looked a picture of health her coat shone when she had laminitis but her feet told a very different story.
 
Joined
31 October 2018
Messages
38
Morning all
Vet has been and has agreed to leave his shoes off, she's taken bloods to test again for EMS and cushions TRH levels. I know there is a slim chance of recovery but unless I've thrown the everything I can at this I won't have him pts. Farrier is due out this afternoon to trim his feet. I know lots of you think I'm prolonging the inevitable but even with a slim chance I'm taking it. Xx
 

Haniki

Active Member
Joined
15 January 2007
Messages
3,472
Location
Devon
OP, sorry I haven't read all this thread but there is a really supportive group on Facebook called 'Friends of the Laminitis Site'.
I have found it really helpful as I have a laminitic pony (caused by undiagnosed Cushings).
I use Easyboot Clouds for turnout.
Good luck with your horse.
 

Pearlsasinger

Well-Known Member
Joined
20 February 2009
Messages
23,613
Location
W. Yorks
Morning all
Vet has been and has agreed to leave his shoes off, she's taken bloods to test again for EMS and cushions TRH levels. I know there is a slim chance of recovery but unless I've thrown the everything I can at this I won't have him pts. Farrier is due out this afternoon to trim his feet. I know lots of you think I'm prolonging the inevitable but even with a slim chance I'm taking it. Xx

And whose benefit is that for? HIs or yours?

I really hope that he recovers but it does seem extremely unlikely.
 

scats

Well-Known Member
Joined
11 September 2007
Messages
3,244
What a dreadfully sad situation OP, but I have to say that if he was mine, I would be calling it a day now.

Best of luck though.
 
Top