Laminitis advice please

[wipeout]

On Thursday morning last week I went to turn my 15 year old 16.3hh Clydesdale x tb out as usual. I noticed he was a little lame on his off fore. I had a good look at the leg and cleaned up the (shod) foot but couldn't find anything obvious and no heat or swelling. I left him in the stable for the day.
That evening he seemed more comfortable so I thought the rest must be doing him good.
The following morning both front legs were swollen and he was lame on both front legs.
In the 30 minutes it took for my farrier to get to me his hind legs had swollen too and he was having real trouble getting around, especially turning.
I called the vet straight away and by the time she arrived (within an hour) he was down in his stable and didn't want to get up.
We managed to get him up eventually and she took some bloods and gave him some pain relief. She went away and ran the bloods which showed a high white blood cell count indicating some kind of infection.
The following morning (saturday) he was worse so they came back out to give more pain relief so we could get him into hospital.
When we got there they did more blood tests, a belly tap, ultra sound scan etc.
they have never found the infection.
All of this has caused systemic laminitis. He had X-rays on Wednesday which showed no changes in his foot compared to X-rays from 2007. He had his shoes removed yesterday because he was starting to show signs of discomfort with the hoof testers.
He is wearing styrofoam pads on both front feet.
He is approximately 650kg and is on one sachet of bute morning and evening.
I have been told he can come home tomorrow to be on box rest continuing on the bute. He will be re-seen in a week unless we are concerned before then.
Other than having him on a deep bed bed (I use rapport) on rubber mats (which I already do) the vet has not given me any more advice.
Any ideas about what I should be feeding him, he usually has hay in a small holed net and a couple of hard feeds a day consisting of Alfa oil and conditioning cubes. I am thinking I need to change this to something else.
I'm not going to lie, I am really worried about him coming home. At least in hospital he is in expert hands, I am all of a sudden feeling very inexperienced!
Has anyone had this experience of a big horse with lami? Are you back riding again? How are you managing them now?

Sorry, this is an epic post! I can't offer any goodies, I have failed to do a supermarket shop due to being at the hospital when I'm not working!

 

[Clodagh]

I would phone the laminitis trust advice line, you have to pay but they are excellent. Make a list of questions first.
Good luck.

 

[doodle]

Cut out the alfa A and conditining feed. Change to a low sugar and starch chaff (I just hifi mollases free) and just enough to get the bute into him. It sounds as if he is over weight so feed him 1.5% of his weight in hay. If he is not over weight then feed no more than 2% of his body weight. If you can soak it for up to 12 hours do that, my horse refused to eat soaked hay tho so we gave up on that, friend horse who was very poorly with laminitus still has her hay soaked overnigth a year on. And if you can split the hay between several nets then do that, I think Minto had 5 very small nets per day. Better for them to not be standing without hay for too long. Make use of small holed nets and even 2 nets inside each other.

My Tb got it for the first time last year at 18yo, it was a very steep learning curve for me having never dealt with it. If need be you may have to use glue on "inprint shoes" but my guy was ok with normal heart bars. That helps by putting there weight up the frog like the hoof supports you have on already.

Once he is better make use of grazing muzzles, I feel mean but he can eitehr go out for the day with a muzzle on or stay in for 22 hours out of 24.

 

[Montyforever]

Soaked hay (12hrs at least) and high fibre feeds are the best. I would avoid the Alfa and conditioning cubes obviously nothing sugary (licks,carrots,apples etc)
Should be on bute/danilon and sedalin?
And the obvious deep bed and box rest
Good luck

 

[acw295]

I'd get expert advice but in the interim I'd be soaking the hay for 16hrs (and rinsing it), and changing feed to a low sugar chaff or speedibeet and adding a supplement like formula4feet, Lamigard or similar.

Even if he doesn't need to lose any weight feeding a fibre only diet with as much of the sugar removed has to be a good idea.

Have they tested for an underlying metabolic issue?

No direct experience but good luck!

 

[YasandCrystal]

Soak all his hay for a minimum of 12 hours and only fibre feed - no carrots, no polos, no molasses etc. You need to rid his bloodstream of sugar to heal the laminae. Good luck, sounds like you caught this very early

 

[wipeout]

He is definitely not overweight, the vet has confirmed this.

I'll look into The Laminitis Trust, thanks

 

[doodle]

Will also say he is back being ridden. He had follow up xrays incase the pedal bones had moved after. He was in i think for about 3 months, but he was tried outside after about 6 weeks, he went nuts (nothing changes there) and came back in lame after less than an hour, so more xrays and more box rest but we think he had simply bruised his feet from charging round. I was riding him tho before turning him out.

Managment now he wears a muzzle outside, although I have just been weaning him off that this week. The grass has lost its greenness. Interestingly my vet sees more cases of it in september than in summer. He is in overnight al the time. His digital pulses are a very good guide to how he is doing and so they are checked everynight. Any slight pulse and he is off the grass and I have 2 muzzles with different sized holes in. However friends horse never had pulses and so they are not a good guide for her.

Feed wise I swapped my topspec comp to topspec anti-lam so he gets that and a small amount of the hifi. He has lost 60kg and now looking much better, I didnt realsie how fat he was until I looked back recently at pictures and feel very guilty.

 

[wipeout]

Blimey, loads of replies, thanks.

He will be on bute, that's all. He is very good so wouldn't need sedalin for calming unless there is another reason why he would need it?

I'll soak and then rinse his hay then and I'll get to the feed merchant for some lami friendly food.

I'm gutted about all of this

 

[Dora5]

Firstly I don't think he sounds over weight, he is a draught horse after all so don't worry about that, also Alfa a is meant to be fine for lamanitics. My horse has had it twice before and got back to full work competing. Yes you do need to keep an eye on weight but the main points are- low sugar, low starch diet, fast fibre by allen and page is good, restrict summer grazing during day light hours when the grass is the richest, keep him in work when he is sound as this will help, soaked hay is better as it takes out the sugars. With regards to restricting hay as the last person said, obviously don't over feed but by underfeeding you risk him getting stressed and losing too much weight, also its really not good for their gut. He will be fine, touch wood mine has been fine for 7 years x

 

[doodle]

I keep thinkiing fo extra stuff. Minto was also on asprin, 10 tabs twice a day, to thin the blood and reduce blood clots in his feet. He was also on acp, not for calming but it has some other medical benefit. My vet also didnt think that Minto was over weight, and never did, however looking back at the pics he was, and now with loosing that weight he looks much better.

 

[wipeout]

I keep thinkiing fo extra stuff. Minto was also on asprin, 10 tabs twice a day, to thin the blood and reduce blood clots in his feet. He was also on acp, not for calming but it has some other medical benefit. My vet also didnt think that Minto was over weight, and never did, however looking back at the pics he was, and now with loosing that weight he looks much better.

I don't wish to be rude and I am grateful for your replies but as I said, he is not overweight. He is a tall Clydesdale cross. I am very careful about keeping him fit and healthy.
I will reduce the sugar in his diet as suggested now he has lami but it wasn't caused by his weight or diet, it was caused by an infection.

 

[doodle]

Sorry

 

[Supertrooper]

To be honest take the advice of your vet/farrier ie the people that have seen your horse. I've been in your situation before and it nearly drove me mad with all the conflicting advice I got, all very good advice but it may not be right for your boy.

I wish you all the best, it's a horrible disease and unfortunately you've got the fact he's a big horse against you aswell xx

 

[Tuffles 23]

Soaked hay (12hrs at least) and high fibre feeds are the best. I would avoid the Alfa and conditioning cubes obviously nothing sugary (licks,carrots,apples etc)
Should be on bute/danilon and sedalin?
And the obvious deep bed and box rest
Good luck

This , sedalin/acp is used to open the blood vessels , also has he been tested for cushings ?
I hope your horse feels better soon .

 

[wipeout]

This , sedalin/acp is used to open the blood vessels , also has he been tested for cushings ?
I hope your horse feels better soon .

I'm sure he has but I'll double check before I collect him tomorrow.

 

[Montyforever]

Ditto above, my mare had a small amount (only needed one tube for the 2 weeks she was bad) of sedlin gel not for the calming effects but to open the blood vessels to the hooves and reduce the swelling

 

[Sparkles]

Do you know, this could have a been a complete ringer for what we went through with Tommy. He was our 18.3hh Shire x TB. He went through everything previous also to find out what was wrong, to finally be diagnosed with laminitis when he'd gone down and couldn't get back up. His was systemic also, though no definitive conclusion as to what caused it as he was not overweight either and fully fit up till this. He'd gone slightly unlevel in front the week prior, but nothing major or obvious. They found a very old abscess cavity, but drew nothing from that. He then also has his legs blow up overnight. What did they give him for the swelling, anything steroid based? He was then told to be turned out to get the selling down. It was the next morning, we got a phone call at 6am saying he'd been down for the last hour and didn't think he could get back up.

Anyway. I won't go on about him. His posts are on here back in 2009 I think it should be.

We treated for a variety of things which did in the end aid the lami attack, but unfortunately, the amount of medication he needed to sustain him, it was a very high risk of them being too much for him. So was a risk we had to decide to take, whether to keep fighting and try and keep him comfortable until he remained stable, or make another decision. We decided to keep fighting, though, have now said we wouldn't go through that again if it came down to it as they were the worst weeks of our lives, I won't lie.

For his meds.
He was on Metformin for EMS.
Metacam for pain relief.
Nettles offered [Advice someone on here gave for natural pain relief, he'd munch on them at various points]
Feed was bog standard unmollassed chaff with literally a pinch of pony nuts to try and keep his appetite.
Had 1.5% of his body weight in hay which had been soaked for 24 hours.
Had fully rubber matted stable, with a very deep bed.
I'm sure there was more, I cannot remember off the top of my head I'm afraid.

Also, when it got to him lying down for long periods of times, we had to try and get him up to move him over sides. He also was getting sores from lying down, so had various ointments to hand to keep them soothed and clean.

His biggest thing which gave him extra time and did miracles, were his imprint shoes. I highly highly recommend getting them put on. They do the job. His pedal bones would have been through his soles if it wasn't for them. They cost a fortune, but honestly, they were god sends. Andrew was amazing putting them on him....as you can imagine, an 18.3hh with lami not wanting to stand, was not an easy feat, but he did it.

Don't be complacent with the x-rays. They won't be showing any changes now as it's so early, get them redone in 2 weeks from the first, then again 2 weeks after. Any rotational changes will be seen then. I'd get the shoes on pronto to take as much pressure off the sole.

Another thing I wished we'd tried, was charcoal, as so many people have rated it as a supplement. It's not digested, but brilliant at removing toxins, so surely, cannot hinder? But again, need to double check this with the lami trust.

Keep on eye him. Monitor him. You know him better than anyone else. We kept fighting all the time Tommy was still willing to fight. Watch his appetite, watch his lying down patterns, watch how much he is peeing and what colour it is, check for swellings/bed sores, etc. His appetite and drinking habits is the main one, they're the biggest give away. If he stops eating, try everything you can do to get him eating again, but it's a very obvious sign that things are going down hill so call the vet at first instant to pull blood and check for liver/kidney function, as again, the medications wont be easy on him.
Keep checking his feet, don't let him move more than he needs to, only pick them out as and when needed.


And never ever be afraid to call your vet. The amount of times we had countless uneeded call outs and phone calls, but, they will be absolutely fine about it. Don't worry about wasting their time or similar if you're unsure. Pick up the phone if you have concerns or questions about anything at all.

We did all of the above for the course of nearly 6 weeks. Without sounding harsh, we agreed there and then, that never again if a horse that size came down with lami, would we fight that hard again. I don't know how bad he is, only you have that idea. I can only relay my experience. Lami in larger horses, is not as uncommon as people think. I know you do not wish to hear that, and I do not wish to seem harsh in anyway, I've tried to word this whole post as gentle asI can possibly word it, as Tommy did not have a good ending and still now, is horrible to write about.

I have all my vibes heading your way. I can truly sympathise beyond words with you. I hope he pulls through and makes a recovery. xxx

 

[wipeout]

Do you know, this could have a been a complete ringer for what we went through with Tommy. He was our 18.3hh Shire x TB. He went through everything previous also to find out what was wrong, to finally be diagnosed with laminitis when he'd gone down and couldn't get back up. His was systemic also, though no definitive conclusion as to what caused it as he was not overweight either and fully fit up till this. He'd gone slightly unlevel in front the week prior, but nothing major or obvious. They found a very old abscess cavity, but drew nothing from that. He then also has his legs blow up overnight. What did they give him for the swelling, anything steroid based? He was then told to be turned out to get the selling down. It was the next morning, we got a phone call at 6am saying he'd been down for the last hour and didn't think he could get back up.

Anyway. I won't go on about him. His posts are on here back in 2009 I think it should be.

We treated for a variety of things which did in the end aid the lami attack, but unfortunately, the amount of medication he needed to sustain him, it was a very high risk of them being too much for him. So was a risk we had to decide to take, whether to keep fighting and try and keep him comfortable until he remained stable, or make another decision. We decided to keep fighting, though, have now said we wouldn't go through that again if it came down to it as they were the worst weeks of our lives, I won't lie.

For his meds.
He was on Metformin for EMS.
Metacam for pain relief.
Nettles offered [Advice someone on here gave for natural pain relief, he'd munch on them at various points]
Feed was bog standard unmollassed chaff with literally a pinch of pony nuts to try and keep his appetite.
Had 1.5% of his body weight in hay which had been soaked for 24 hours.
Had fully rubber matted stable, with a very deep bed.
I'm sure there was more, I cannot remember off the top of my head I'm afraid.

Also, when it got to him lying down for long periods of times, we had to try and get him up to move him over sides. He also was getting sores from lying down, so had various ointments to hand to keep them soothed and clean.

His biggest thing which gave him extra time and did miracles, were his imprint shoes. I highly highly recommend getting them put on. They do the job. His pedal bones would have been through his soles if it wasn't for them. They cost a fortune, but honestly, they were god sends. Andrew was amazing putting them on him....as you can imagine, an 18.3hh with lami not wanting to stand, was not an easy feat, but he did it.

Don't be complacent with the x-rays. They won't be showing any changes now as it's so early, get them redone in 2 weeks from the first, then again 2 weeks after. Any rotational changes will be seen then. I'd get the shoes on pronto to take as much pressure off the sole.

Another thing I wished we'd tried, was charcoal, as so many people have rated it as a supplement. It's not digested, but brilliant at removing toxins, so surely, cannot hinder? But again, need to double check this with the lami trust.

Keep on eye him. Monitor him. You know him better than anyone else. We kept fighting all the time Tommy was still willing to fight. Watch his appetite, watch his lying down patterns, watch how much he is peeing and what colour it is, check for swellings/bed sores, etc. His appetite and drinking habits is the main one, they're the biggest give away. If he stops eating, try everything you can do to get him eating again, but it's a very obvious sign that things are going down hill so call the vet at first instant to pull blood and check for liver/kidney function, as again, the medications wont be easy on him.
Keep checking his feet, don't let him move more than he needs to, only pick them out as and when needed.


And never ever be afraid to call your vet. The amount of times we had countless uneeded call outs and phone calls, but, they will be absolutely fine about it. Don't worry about wasting their time or similar if you're unsure. Pick up the phone if you have concerns or questions about anything at all.

We did all of the above for the course of nearly 6 weeks. Without sounding harsh, we agreed there and then, that never again if a horse that size came down with lami, would we fight that hard again. I don't know how bad he is, only you have that idea. I can only relay my experience. Lami in larger horses, is not as uncommon as people think. I know you do not wish to hear that, and I do not wish to seem harsh in anyway, I've tried to word this whole post as gentle asI can possibly word it, as Tommy did not have a good ending and still now, is horrible to write about.

I have all my vibes heading your way. I can truly sympathise beyond words with you. I hope he pulls through and makes a recovery. xxx

Thank you for sharing and I'm sorry about your Tommy.
Mine is not lying down much at all, he is under 24 hour surveillance, they say he lays down for short periods but is able to get up relatively easily. He seems comfortable walking in a straight line today, you can see that cornering is more difficult but he is striding out and is keen to stretch his legs while the vet is checking him over.
He is not leaning back or anything, just standing in his stable normally, you wouldn't know anything was wrong if you didn't see him move.
The vets have been great and I wouldn't think twice about calling them out if needed. They are only 10 minutes away so can be here quite quickly.

 

[Sparkles]

No problem, again, I did not mean for it to seem gloomy at all, but just being completely honest about what happened with him, as if I could redo it, I would. He also was fine for the first 2 weeks, we were thinking he was getting better, as his feet were getting more comfortable [apart from the terrifying xrays], he was brighter in himself and again, didn't have the lami stand much, nor led down a lot for the first 2 weeks. It was about the 4th week, which we started noticing little differences, ie, eating patterns, wee colour, etc. It was the 5th week, he stopped eating completely and we gave him 3 days to try and get him eating, by the 3rd day, we tried every food possible despite whether it was 'lami approved' or not, as it was better than not eating at all. We got a few pinchfuls of topline nuts soaked in molasses and apple juice down his neck half heartedly, but, that was then all and he wouldn't stand at all then, which is what gave us our answer unfortunately and the bloods confirmed he had organ failure.

He sounds a lot more sound on his feet than Tommy was to start though. We never knew about Metformin tablets, and they did make a huge difference to him I think. On the end of the 5th week, he walked out completely sound almost. I would definitely ask about them and treating for EMS, as it was something recommended on here, which made us enquire about it.

Has he ever had any abnormal muscle/fat/shaping anywhere?

I trust the vets are doing everything possible like ours did, so again, I hope it's not as bad as Tommy's was. Big big vibes to you xxx

 

[Sparkles]

Forgot to add. This is the guy I'd highly recommend having a chat with. He does a lot with the lami trust also.

http://www.andrew-poynton.co.uk/


Definitely worth a call, as he's done so much research and had success in lami in bigger horses. He's always trying to design new ideas to help aid them, as well doing the impring shoes, and knows his stuff.

 

[wipeout]

Has he ever had any abnormal muscle/fat/shaping anywhere?

I have just been reading about EMS, he hasn't ever had any odd fatty lumps or shaping anywhere.

I will look up the guy you mention. Thanks

 

[BlackVelvet]

My horse got lami last year, he was a big ID, had alot of weight and muscle which never looks good to a vet when they first come out to see them. The worry is the extra strain will cause more rotation, we were incredibly lucky. He was never had a great pain tolerance so told us when it first started to hurt so got it early. We had no rotation but it was clear he was suffering with pain.

He had 2x Danillion a day, and 2x ACP (believe this helps to open the blood vessels and also encourages them to lie down) also lilypads (which he had great fun pulling off every night!)

Also he was blood tested and his blood sugar was sky high, 30x metformin a day and 4 months box rest and he came sound. It was hard work and at there was many tears along the way but he was a star.

Speak to one of the feed companies aswell, they always offer good advice on whats best for your type of horse.

Good Luck xx

 

[BlackVelvet]

I have just been reading about EMS, he hasn't ever had any odd fatty lumps or shaping anywhere.

Mine also didnt! and he had EMS.

 

[Sarah1]

Agree with the others who have said soaked hay (vet told me min 2 hours but I always soaked longer & rinsed very well) also I would try the hifi molasses free too (or fast fibre) and just keep him on the bute and with a nice deep comfy bed.
Good luck, it's very worrying, my little Shetland had a bout earlier this year and it was very stressful and at the time I cringed to think how hard it would be if my big boy came down with it so I really feel for you.
I also, now she's lami free, feed cut nettles as they're excellent for 'cleaning' the blood (you might have to check with the vet if your boy can have them while he still has lami).
Wishing your boy all the best for a very speedy recovery

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

On Thursday morning last week I went to turn my 15 year old 16.3hh Clydesdale x tb out as usual. I noticed he was a little lame on his off fore. I had a good look at the leg and cleaned up the (shod) foot but couldn't find anything obvious and no heat or swelling. I left him in the stable for the day.
That evening he seemed more comfortable so I thought the rest must be doing him good.
The following morning both front legs were swollen and he was lame on both front legs.
In the 30 minutes it took for my farrier to get to me his hind legs had swollen too and he was having real trouble getting around, especially turning.
I called the vet straight away and by the time she arrived (within an hour) he was down in his stable and didn't want to get up.
We managed to get him up eventually and she took some bloods and gave him some pain relief. She went away and ran the bloods which showed a high white blood cell count indicating some kind of infection.
The following morning (saturday) he was worse so they came back out to give more pain relief so we could get him into hospital.
When we got there they did more blood tests, a belly tap, ultra sound scan etc.
they have never found the infection.
All of this has caused systemic laminitis. He had X-rays on Wednesday which showed no changes in his foot compared to X-rays from 2007. He had his shoes removed yesterday because he was starting to show signs of discomfort with the hoof testers.
He is wearing styrofoam pads on both front feet.
He is approximately 650kg and is on one sachet of bute morning and evening.
I have been told he can come home tomorrow to be on box rest continuing on the bute. He will be re-seen in a week unless we are concerned before then.
Other than having him on a deep bed bed (I use rapport) on rubber mats (which I already do) the vet has not given me any more advice.
Any ideas about what I should be feeding him, he usually has hay in a small holed net and a couple of hard feeds a day consisting of Alfa oil and conditioning cubes. I am thinking I need to change this to something else.
I'm not going to lie, I am really worried about him coming home. At least in hospital he is in expert hands, I am all of a sudden feeling very inexperienced!
Has anyone had this experience of a big horse with lami? Are you back riding again? How are you managing them now?

Sorry, this is an epic post! I can't offer any goodies, I have failed to do a supermarket shop due to being at the hospital when I'm not working!

Speak to D&H they have a senior nutritionist there advised me very well for my lami mare. Thanx to Box of Frogs for the tip.

My mare wore styro foam pads too. Mine are on this website.

http://equinecare-and-control.weebly.com/l.html