laminitis again!!!

Is he tested for Cushings or insulin resistance? Do you know why he has had this attack?
Another question, how old is he? Does he shed his winter coat slowly?
 
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muff747 said:
Is he tested for Cushings or insulin resistance? Do you know why he has had this attack?
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yes he has cushings was diognosed in october..on 1 prascend a day.. acth levels are 33.5 they were 245.. so they are good... vet wants to test again may june time... vet said to give him 1 bute today then another one tonight, i dont want to give him that much. hes only 12.3hh so i gave him 1 tonight and will give him another in the morning, then half a day after that..
 
If he is that lame he needs to be got comfortable quickly to reduce the inflammation even if it takes two bute a day to do so, by not giving him enough you are potentially delaying his recovery. My 13 hand pony has had to have 2 a day for periods of time, as recommended by the vet and it will do less harm than the laminitis will do.
It is probably the cold weather that has brought it on as it seems that you have the cushings under control.
 
be positive said:
If he is that lame he needs to be got comfortable quickly to reduce the inflammation even if it takes two bute a day to do so, by not giving him enough you are potentially delaying his recovery. My 13 hand pony has had to have 2 a day for periods of time, as recommended by the vet and it will do less harm than the laminitis will do.
It is probably the cold weather that has brought it on as it seems that you have the cushings under control.
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yes i might try it.. vet said 2 today then 1/3 the day after till we think hes recovering... i didnt soak his haylage for 2 nights because of everything freezing,, possibly frosted grass too...his feet are already seperated, great!:mad: barefoot trimmer has been great with him....
 
tango'smum said:
yes he has cushings was diognosed in october..on 1 prascend a day.. acth levels are 33.5 they were 245.. so they are good... vet wants to test again may june time... vet said to give him 1 bute today then another one tonight, i dont want to give him that much. hes only 12.3hh so i gave him 1 tonight and will give him another in the morning, then half a day after that..
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When exactly were his results at 33.5 was that recently? ACTH carries on rising up to the end of the year. My horse's ACTH were higher when he was tested in January. If the Prascend was controlling the ACTH and keeping down to normal levels, there shouldn't be the threat of lami.
Has he got a noticeable crest and perhaps pads of fat on his shoulders or behind the saddle area?

If the bute masks the pain too much, it will encourage too much movement and that risks more damage to the fragile laminae.

What are you feeding and is he on thick bed of shavings? If you could encourage him to lie down, the feet will heal quicker.
 
muff747 said:
When exactly were his results at 33.5 was that recently? ACTH carries on rising up to the end of the year. My horse's ACTH were higher when he was tested in January. If the Prascend was controlling the ACTH and keeping down to normal levels, there shouldn't be the threat of lami.
Has he got a noticeable crest and perhaps pads of fat on his shoulders or behind the saddle area?

If the bute masks the pain too much, it will encourage too much movement and that risks more damage to the fragile laminae.

What are you feeding and is he on thick bed of shavings? If you could encourage him to lie down, the feet will heal quicker.
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yes fat pads due to cushings, not overly fatty though.. hes 12.3hh and 325kg. welsh cross... he was tested begining of december... he gets a bit of fast fibre to mix his brewers yeast and garlic in.. soaked haylage... yes big bed of shavings...

saying that the fat pads are really only above his eyes... he looks well everywhere else... think i will go back and read jamie jacksons book foundered..
 
I would maybe get some of the high fibre haylage bags as a standby for cold weather when you can't soak. Cushings can be really difficult to control and Prascend/pergolide doesn't always work for some ponies. Has anything else changed with his management, or is it just that you couldn't soak haylage because of the cold weather? Just wondering if there is another trigger for him. My little Cushings mini had bouts after being wormed, or a new horse being introduced, i.e. stress and also reacted to vaccinations.
Hope he's feeling better soon.
 
Look at this web site too, loads of info and good advice.
http://ecirhorse.com/index.php/laminitis

If he has fat pads, he could be insulin restistant, if he were mine I'd have him tested for that and check the ACTH again to check if it's under control.
You can up the prascend if it isn't controlling the lami. I had to keep testing my boy for 12 months and increasing the dose until finally the ACTH was back to normal levels. 33.5 is still out of control and would have gone up more towards the end of the year. I suspect the seasonally adjusted normal level would have been about 29.
My boy was on 6mg throughout December and January. There are horses in the US that need more than 10mg to keep it down and therefore the lami at bay.
Yes the frozen grass could have triggered the lami because the ACTH wasn't controlled.
It's very important to reduce any sugar in his diet. Speedibeet would be good, but to be safe rinse it through again after soaking. Add magnesium and salt to it, it's all on the website under DDT Overview in Diet and click on the link for the emergency diet.
Good luck, hope he pulls through
Hope he's feeling better tomorrow
 
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If its any support, my 11"3/12hh spent five days at two Bute a day a few weeks back after she was crippled (ate someone else's breakfast!).

Do you have boots and pads or is he shod?

Also I'm not sure how much the Difference should be, but at her ideal weight my welshy tapes at 200/210kg :)
 
I've found this page really useful, from liphook:

http://www.liphookequinehosp.co.uk/documents/PituitaryParsIntermediaDysfunction.pdf

If you scroll just over half way down the first page, then there is a graph to help you understand ACTH levels at different times of the year in normal and PPID (Cushings) horses. According to that 33.5 would be on the high end of normal in December.
I dragged my gelding in three weeks ago with a lami attack (I think frozen grass and then cold sunny day was the trigger). Thankfully he was soon better on a few days of soaked hay, box rest, then walking in his boots once sound. Fingers crossed your boy recovers quickly.
 
thanks for your replys.. i am just of to do him now... another bute... he's barefoot has been since october.. he has some easy boot gloves...yes 33.5 is still a little high, but vet dont want to cheak again till may june time.. i will phone him again tomorrow, they dont want to test for ir i keep asking.. !! will have good chat with vet in the morning... hes feet are already seperated, great will this bout mean they have seperated even more?...
 
sueeltringham said:
I've found this page really useful, from liphook:

http://www.liphookequinehosp.co.uk/documents/PituitaryParsIntermediaDysfunction.pdf

If you scroll just over half way down the first page, then there is a graph to help you understand ACTH levels at different times of the year in normal and PPID (Cushings) horses. According to that 33.5 would be on the high end of normal in December.
I dragged my gelding in three weeks ago with a lami attack (I think frozen grass and then cold sunny day was the trigger). Thankfully he was soon better on a few days of soaked hay, box rest, then walking in his boots once sound. Fingers crossed your boy recovers quickly.
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thankyou for the link very useful..:)
 
Hi Tangos mum sorry to hear about the flare up
my mare having been in since july with lami
she had a flare up 2 weeks ago, i think it was the haylage lami friendly one , to many people said even the lami friendly one can cause flare ups so i would take pony off it i have wont use it again i use. My mare was on it 1 section evening due to protein loss my guess once her protein levels were up it was to much for her

i bought a huge hay soaker like this one to soak her hay
since the freeze
I bought 4 big tub buckets the huge ones

put one section in each filled water untill submerged then i put an old freezer basket with slate on to weigh it down so her hay is soaker still and doesnt freeze these are in common room where its warm so i have no problems with her not getting soaked hay . i also rinse her speedy beet to , she also has been 2 bute a day for months going up to 3-4 when sore


on2buteadayformonthsgoingupto3-4whenextrasore004.jpg


on2buteadayformonthsgoingupto3-4whenextrasore003.jpg
 
moorman said:
Of course the most important thing is to make sure the diet is not contributing to the problem any more, and that you can offer a consistent and correct feeding regime.
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I'd like to second this for when he's better. I now take my laminitic prone pony off grass completely when the weather is cold and especially when it's frosty nights and sunny days. She is also off spring and autumn. She has only recently been able to have any grass at all without negative effects. This sort of forward thinking might help reduce the risks for the future. Your whole mind set has to change when dealing with laminitic horses.
Hope he recovers quickly.
 
Could be cold induced? Here, in the Netherlands, we've also quite a couple of flare-ups, ranging form mild cases, such as walking more slowly on frozen paddocks to some full blown cases. I've got one of my own horses on bute, as well, although she's (not yet) one of the 'full blown's".
 
Maybe you should remind your vet you are the paying customer and you have your pony's health at heart (I'm not implying your vet hasn't). It is vital that you know if the Prascend is controlling the ACTH so that you can up the dose if not. The lami will not go away whilst the levels are above normal. I urge you to get educated about this disease by reading reading reading so you can work with your vet to get your pony well again. Unfortunately vets do not know everything and are not always bang up to date with the latest research.
The yahoo group link I sent has got more than 10,000 members who all own lami prone horses/ponies and have been help a great deal by the moderators knowledge and experience of what consistently works and what are old wives tales and don't work.
Any lami flare ups in autumn/winter could likely be an indication of a metabolic problem, it's not a normal occurrence to get lami when it's cold for "normal" horses, therefore there has to be something wrong to explain these attacks.
Cushings Disease, or PPID and Insulin Resistance (EMS) is much more common than people think and there are many normal looking horses/ponies with no outward signs that are being dx as Cushings and/or IR.
My vet suggested my TB gelding could be PPID in 2007 and his only signs were footiness, skin problems like mud fever, cracked heels and rain scald and hives all at once, and a high worm count despite regular worming. I too was doubtful because he didn't have a long curly coat and he still had hollows above his eyes, but I was gobsmacked when the ACTH test came back positive.
If your pony is having a lami attack now, I would always advise an ACTH test, and if there is a history of obesity, fat pads, a cresty neck then ask for an insulin glucose test. You cannot treat what you are you are not aware of, and the sooner you have a diagnosis the sooner you can start a treatment programme.
Incidentally the EC/IR group strongly advise against the "dex" test for laminitis, they have found if there is any hint of lami, this test can tip them over the edge into a full blown attack
 
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tango'smum said:
i didnt soak his haylage for 2 nights because of everything freezing,, possibly frosted grass too...his feet are already seperated, great!:mad: barefoot trimmer has been great with him....
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I still think this contributed to a flare up , bit of a coincident you not soaking his haylage then this fare up.

I am 99.9% sure my mares flare up was the haylage as she had 1 large section the night before the flare up.
I have spoken to too many lami horse owners who all say their horses now are sensitive to haylage even the lami safe one ,my mare was fine with it as mentioned in earlier post.

I am much happier with her on soaked hay . I will never feed her haylage again as every flare up could be her last and she is to precious to me to risk it.

Up to you but personally going through what i have and am over the last 7 months .

Its best to be safe than sorry. I would fine a supplier with nice hay that pony eats and stick with soaking it . IMO:)
 
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been up to do tango, he seems to be moving better this morning.. vet coming tomorrow morning to do IR test as well as acth levels again.. the haylage is home grown organic, its soaked over night.. i only didnt soak it for a couple of days... if hes IR then that will be the reason for laminitis this time...
 
vets been.. taken bloods. testing acth again and for IR... he also has a tumor in his mouth.. :'( given me danilon for his laminitis..
sould have blood results in the next couple of days..
 
muff747 said:
Good luck, if it's up at least it's manageable by increasing - it's just expensive - but we do these things for our horses don't we;)
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i'd give my life for that pony... hes the sweetest little thing....hes on a diet... hi-fi lite, and haylage soaked...the prascend is expencive enough.. how much is metformin.. vets hopeing we can do it on diet alone...
 
Tango's mum - you could try switching to an alfalfa free chop, some ponies are sensitive to that, or there's a Hi-fi mollasses free.
Also Soft Soak is great for an alternative to Speedibeet. Have you added any magnesium to the diet? It is recommended for laminitics - did I send you this link - if I already have sorry, can't remember who I sent it to or not:p
http://www.ecirhorse.com/
Lots of good info about feeding a pony with laminitis.
Sorry don't know about price of those drugs, someone else may know.
Keep us updated, and hope he continues to improve.
 
hi, internet has been down, so only just got back on.. hes much better thankyou.. rode him a couple of days ago.. hes slightly insulin resistant.. so just watching that....
 
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