laminitis, could someone explain??

tango'smum

tango'smum

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just got my invoice from the vets, its says.. reassess re laminitis, obvious dorsal dip and jamming at cb..some pain on turning inhand dps normal,testers positive at rim of p3 (all four feet ) diet is good and pony not over weight.. arrange x-rays...
 
Sounds like they want to X-ray for possible pedal bone rotation suspected by pain in all 4 feet when hoof tested and a dip in conakry band. Not sure what p3 is? Sorry. What do you feed including forage and what weight breed is your horse etc? I'm not an expert but this will be the first questions they ask before being able to offer advice. Also shod or not? Hope it gets sorted laminitis Is awful.
 
Archie73 said:
Sounds like they want to X-ray for possible pedal bone rotation suspected by pain in all 4 feet when hoof tested and a dip in conakry band. Not sure what p3 is? Sorry. What do you feed including forage and what weight breed is your horse etc? I'm not an expert but this will be the first questions they ask before being able to offer advice. Also shod or not? Hope it gets sorted laminitis Is awful.
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i know p3 is the pedle bone... hes welsh cross 12.3hh and 296 kg.. 3kg of soaked haylage twice a day, and small amount of fast fibre twice a day.. with vits mins and mag ox.. hes on box rest at mo.. barefoot.. since november..he did comment the trimmer wasnt taking enough toe or heel off...wasnt to happy.. so getting a remedial farrier in..
 
P3 is the shorthand term for the Coffin bone/pedal bone, so it looks like they are thinking its pedal bone rotation, but they seem satisfied that your horse is the correct weight, so I would be asking for EMS and Cushings tests too. Good luck! x
 
Rosehip said:
P3 is the shorthand term for the Coffin bone/pedal bone, so it looks like they are thinking its pedal bone rotation, but they seem satisfied that your horse is the correct weight, so I would be asking for EMS and Cushings tests too. Good luck! x
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he was diognosed cushings last october.. on meds thats fine now.. acth 26.. was 245.. slightly ir...
 
tango'smum said:
just got my invoice from the vets, its says.. reassess re laminitis, obvious dorsal dip and jamming at cb..some pain on turning inhand dps normal,testers positive at rim of p3 (all four feet ) diet is good and pony not over weight.. arrange x-rays...
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Change in angle of front wall of hoof with dip in it. Are there horizontal ripples crushed into a dip on the outer wall getting wider apart round towards the heels ? this indicates the jamming mentioned, don't know for sure. Sensitive round coffin bone means inflammation and/or coffin bone under thin sole/near enough to be pained with testers. Pain when pony turns is indicative of laminitis as it stresses the hoof. Sounds like he suspects rotation and wants X Rays to check. I'm not a vet/professional so am guessing. He is happy with weight and diet.

I second about bloods. Do phone and ask your vet to explain clearly to you to be sure what it means. :) Good luck. x

ps. Just seen the Cushings diagnosis. x
 
Diet looks ok to me, obviously something going on in the feet, which is the most likely symptom of low grade laminitis.

Personally I'd get some boots and pads on and get him out for some exercise. Box rest is really a bad idea for laminitis, movement is the best cure for stimulating the feet to repair themselves and ensure the feed he gets albeit soaked hay is put to some use. If there is any rotation in the pedal bone movement stimulates the feet and aids the reversal process.
 
Pale Rider said:
Diet looks ok to me, obviously something going on in the feet, which is the most likely symptom of low grade laminitis.

Personally I'd get some boots and pads on and get him out for some exercise. Box rest is really a bad idea for laminitis, movement is the best cure for stimulating the feet to repair themselves and ensure the feed he gets albeit soaked hay is put to some use. If there is any rotation in the pedal bone movement stimulates the feet and aids the reversal process.
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he had laminitis, 6-7 yrs ago.. then 4 times since october just gone... he has boots. trimmer said keep him moving..and keep him off grass.. vet said box rest... anyway i would like to keep him in till the x-rays are done on wednesday...then go from there...
 
tango'smum said:
he had laminitis, 6-7 yrs ago.. then 4 times since october just gone... he has boots. trimmer said keep him moving..and keep him off grass.. vet said box rest... anyway i would like to keep him in till the x-rays are done on wednesday...then go from there...
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I would listen to your vet rather than that trimmer you are using. They sound crazy.
 
Pale Rider said:
Diet looks ok to me, obviously something going on in the feet, which is the most likely symptom of low grade laminitis.

Personally I'd get some boots and pads on and get him out for some exercise. Box rest is really a bad idea for laminitis, movement is the best cure for stimulating the feet to repair themselves and ensure the feed he gets albeit soaked hay is put to some use. If there is any rotation in the pedal bone movement stimulates the feet and aids the reversal process.
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Not always if the foot has not stabalized movement is the last thing you want to do. Tango'smum I would keep him box rested as he has the dip in the coronet band.

You can get reversal rotation from good a farrier and special shoeing and trimming.
 
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Leviathan said:
Not always if the foot has not stabalized movement is the last thing you want to do. Tango'smum I would keep him box rested as he has the dip in the coronet band.

You can get reversal rotation from good a farrier and special shoeing and trimming.
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Obviously, I don't agree with that for a myriad of reasons.
 
So what don't you agree with exactly??
What are your reasons?

A horse should move on its foot when its in the process of rotating and sinking??. It will be in allot of pain unless a pad of special shoes are put on.

Scuse me but from what Tango'smum said she should dump her barefoot trimmer and follow vets advice.
 
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My friend was into barefoot trimming she turned him out in a small bare paddock.

Against vets advice etc and everyone else at the yard. Two days later she went to get him in and he would not move. It was then she saw his pedal bones had penetrated the soles , he was PTS as soon as vet got there. RIP Josh
 
I'm not getting into an argument about this, you have to do what you think is right in the circumstances.

The success rate in the UK for farriers and vets is pretty poor and I tend to take a considered view of what they advise.

Of course horror stories can be trotted out about everything, and frankley I don't think it helps.

At the end of the day everyone has to make their own decision, but what I do know is, that in some areas vets are taking a different line to what they were only a few short years ago.
 
No going to argue.



Well when my mare's foot was not stabilized as we had to remove her shoe due to abscess she sunk within a few days. The she sunk again a few months later on down the line due to another abscess. My farrier put on glue on shoes and these stabilized her once abscess cleared.

Her stabilizing was due to his expertize of the farrier. Her last x rays showed she has had reversal pedal bone from 15 degrees to 11 degrees. This is down the the farrier why her foot improved.
The proof is in the pudding.

My mare would not be here today if it wasn't for my vet and farrier. Sorry I just can't see how turning a horse out when the foot is unstable so horse can run about, can only end in disaster.


I am not against barefoot in a stabilized foot only an unstable one.
 
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Well abscessing is part of the recovery, you cannot salvage damaged feet, they have to re grow, I'm really only interested in a full reversal.

No one is talking about turning them out.

This is far more complicated than putting shoes on damaged feet.

Sorry got to go now, be back on tomorrow evening.
 
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Well any reversal can mean the difference between life and death. I have one of the best farriers and TBH he has done marvels with my mare as have my vet.

My X Barefoot trimmer did nothing for my geldings feet to improve them so he now has front shoes.
You wont know what Tango'smum's barefoot trimmer said to her its shocking.
 
DO NOT exercise any horse that has lami, that is crazy advice! I just read the comment from a few posts above, cant quote as im on my phone..
1. Lami is incredibly painful
2. Unless you have had xrays then you dont know to what degree you are dealing with, to exercise in my opinion is cruel.

I completely sympothise with you as mine is lami prone and its a complete nightmare! Wish you all the best x
 
Leviathan said:
You can get reversal rotation from good a farrier and special shoeing and trimming.
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In a horse which does not have metabolic disease, like this one has, you can get reversal of rotation by feeding the horse a diet that allows new and attached laminae to grow. It does not require shoes and they may even be a hindrance, since even nailing them on causes pain. If the foot grows properly attached, the rotation should normally grow out with the new foot.

The OPs horse is a different kettle of fish, with Cushings that is causing real problems. In that case, reattachment of good laminae may be impossible due to the disease and only the people on the spot can really advise.

Good luck OP, I hope you get him stable, but with 4 or more attacks in less than a year it sounds as if you have terrible problems :(
 
thankyou to the ones advising not to put out... hes staying in untill we know more.(x-rays)..i have a top vet looking after him now..along with there farrier.. i will be asking lots of questions when he comes to x-ray next week.. vet thinks its been brought on buy bad trimmer, too much heel and long toes... i expect i'll be back on after the x-rays for more help and suppoert.. thanks again,.. :)
 
Carry on what your doing and then consider options after xrays.
I cant believe people consider moving a lami horse about humane, its such a painful condition!
Best of luck! Mine was in completely for 4 months, now hes back to full work with alot of blood, sweat and tears along the way! A year ago today he first got lami and i cant believe *touches wood* how far hes come x
 
cptrayes said:
In a horse which does not have metabolic disease, like this one has, you can get reversal of rotation by feeding the horse a diet that allows new and attached laminae to grow. It does not require shoes and they may even be a hindrance, since even nailing them on causes pain. If the foot grows properly attached, the rotation should normally grow out with the new foot.

The OPs horse is a different kettle of fish, with Cushings that is causing real problems. In that case, reattachment of good laminae may be impossible due to the disease and only the people on the spot can really advise.

Good luck OP, I hope you get him stable, but with 4 or more attacks in less than a year it sounds as if you have terrible problems :(
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In my mares case it has nothing to do with her feed why she has reversal of the pedal bone it is solely to do with the farriers trim and shoeing expertize.

My mares shoes were glued on, only when these shoes were glued on did she find comfort. It had nothing to do with her feed my farrier is one of the best so I know its his work that reversed her rotation in a matter of weeks..
 
tango'smum said:
thankyou to the ones advising not to put out... hes staying in untill we know more.(x-rays)..i have a top vet looking after him now..along with there farrier.. i will be asking lots of questions when he comes to x-ray next week.. vet thinks its been brought on buy bad trimmer, too much heel and long toes... i expect i'll be back on after the x-rays for more help and suppoert.. thanks again,.. :)
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This is why i lost face in barefoot with severe laminitics. When its your member of your family beloved pet, why take the risk and put no sole support in the way of pads or glue on shoes. Josh had no chance bless him V was convinced by a barefoot trimmer than barefoot is the way to go. Had he had pads on supporting the whole sole he would have stood a good chance of stabilizing the foot. As most know I have had 11 months of laminitic related issues. With the best farrier and vets its looking like we will get through this .
 
Sorry if I'm being dumb as I am very much still starting to learn but can you not boot with pads far more effectively and with more day to day control then you can show? That seems more logical to me? Please answer gently!
 
You can put pads have a slight disadvantage where the horse can slip off them, thus putting them a a dangerous angle for a horse with an unstable foot.
Depends on your situation and stage of the laminitis as to which is best. That's when the farrier and vet need a comflab and work out whats best at that particular time. In my case I have had glue on shoes and styrofoam pads on.

One time shoes had to come off and pads go on and visa versa.:)
 
Ok, but I don't understand how the horse can slip off a pad within an enclosed boot......the memory foam type pads actually take an imprint so are quite non slip I would have thought.... But as I said I am still learning so thanks for explaining even if I still don't get why you have to use shoe and pad rather then boot and pad? I understand that you have experienced success with glue on shoes, I wonder If anyone has actually managed with pad and boot because we can all only talk from experience I suppose?
 
Archie73 said:
Ok, but I don't understand how the horse can slip off a pad within an enclosed boot......the memory foam type pads actually take an imprint so are quite non slip I would have thought.... But as I said I am still learning so thanks for explaining even if I still don't get why you have to use shoe and pad rather then boot and pad? I understand that you have experienced success with glue on shoes, I wonder If anyone has actually managed with pad and boot because we can all only talk from experience I suppose?
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In my case (they on the web site in my sig) the pads worked gr8 . Once my mares feet were trimmed they were smooth and she had sunk so she actually slipped off them between when they were put on (11.30am) and 3pm she was in so much pain I had a job to get them off . When I did the toes were squashed flat but the heals were high. So we tried another pair and another a few days later and the same thing happened. She did not have boots on , the pads were held on with duck tape and vet wrap which they had been all the way along.
 
Ok. Makes sense now. Pads would slip and sit wrong as with no level boot surface under to give level standing the weight of a hoof on a pad on a soft surface would of course offer no support at all just a cushion which would sit unevenly. A pad that is the correct thickness and texture in a boot would in my opinion and current experience offer full support to the underside of the entire foot. My horse is 720kilos and his pads don't slip in his boots, however I am not suggesting this for suspected pedal bone rotation as I have no idea how much support that requires. Thanks again for taking time to explain.
 
BlackVelvet said:
Carry on what your doing and then consider options after xrays.
I cant believe people consider moving a lami horse about humane, its such a painful condition!
Best of luck! Mine was in completely for 4 months, now hes back to full work with alot of blood, sweat and tears along the way! A year ago today he first got lami and i cant believe *touches wood* how far hes come x
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hes having xrays wednesday... showed my old farrier some pics of his feet, he cant belive how bad they are... and i was told to keep riding him...:mad:
but will know more after xrays... vet said to give him some sedalin 2 hours before he gets to me... hes very good, but needs to be very still for the xrays. will he tell me there and then or will i have to wait for the results?...
my last post with pics of his feet...
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=538856
 
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