Laminitis, differing advice?

Micky

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As said before have a look at the laminitis site for info, incl feeding carrots! A few carrots in the day won’t hurt him, but I would stop the turnips, not always agreeable with a horses tummy! Def soaked hay, double net if need be, I’d agree with above 7.5kg drip fed over the day.and yes hi if molasses free is the better chop to feed. You can get him tested for cushings now, you don’t have to wait unless he is particularly stressed.
 

Follysmum

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Moderation is key

Carrots are actually low in sugar like 3G per carrot compared to a slice of hay 80g

If you look up Claire McLeod nutritionists she gives some fantastic advice about feeding.

People are looking at the sugar of dry matter without the natural water content. We feed carrots fresh so the value includes the water.
 
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meleeka

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Moderation is key

Carrots are actually low in sugar like 3G per carrot compared to a slice of hay 80g

If you look up Claire McLeod nutritionists she gives some fantastic advice about feeding.

People are looking at the sugar of dry matter without the natural water content. We feed carrots fresh so the value includes the water.
Is there any benefit to feeding them though? Seems an odd thing for a vet to recommend.
 

windand rain

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Sadly Laminitis seems to be better and more fully researched on web pages than it does by vets. There are still a load of vets that think they know all there is without finding out about modern research and practices that have changed certaily over the last 10 years. Carrots are very low in sugar and can add interest and enjoyment to an otherwise boring and restrictive diet. However the practice that I cannot uderstand it a vet advising movement for weight loss when it will likely cause greater damage to the laminae. Ok once everything is healed and secure ie a minimum of 30 post being sound off drugs in a box then gentle rehab exercise will help futher weight loss. Drastic weight loss in fat horses especially in small ponies and cobby types is a real problem of almost always fatal hypolipidemia. Slow steady weight loss and a full pony are what are needed so by all means soak and slow feed hay but make sure you have enough fibre going through the system and enough calories to keep metabolism active without resorting to fat globules in the blood
 

majors

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Reading this I would definetly test for EMS-my Welsh Sec D was super fit-had been to the regionals 2 days running 3 days before,not overweight but well and went down literally overnight with Lami.Negative Cushings but positive off Glucose test and very high levels-don’t just take the blood test result-mine came back fine but vet was adamant that he had EMS hence the Glucose test which was stupidly high.The blood test does now apparently have a marker which If marker is high they are non EMS but if Low they are.

I would definetly drop the carrots etc as very high in sugar.Too quick weight loss is also not good-if you have relatively old hay which is soaked for about 4 hours then they are not getting anything from hay anyway.They will store fat if starved as well as getting Ulcers.I would up well soaked hay a bit.You can get some good healthy treats now which is what I used.

I would also change from Hi Fi Lite to Hi Fi Molasses Free-there is still a high level of sugar in Hi Fi Lite-there is actually not much difference between Hi Fi and Hi Fi Lite but almost 10% difference between Hi Fi Lite and Molasses Free.Before I changed my boy I spoke to my vet and even she couldn’t believe the difference.Mine went on Hi Fi Molasses Free with some Hi Fibre Nuts and he looked good,wasn’t hungry and sound.If you put the 2 hi fi’s next to each other, you will be surprised at how much more Molasses are in Hi Fi Lite.

Lastly,please don’t beat yourself up that you have done something wrong-I did this and as the vet told me-when they go down like that especially when you have already been trying to prevent, it is more likely Genetic.They are finding more and more that the Welsh type are getting it more than likely down to the way the seasons are changing and horses that basically lived in the past wandering around moors and hills.
Good luck.x
Tha
 

majors

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Thank you so much for your reply, the dengie is the one the vet wrote down but I will order the molasses free one. He was already one the Baileys lo cal for laminitis. It is minefield I will ring the vet re getting tests done ASAP x
 

majors

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Sadly Laminitis seems to be better and more fully researched on web pages than it does by vets. There are still a load of vets that think they know all there is without finding out about modern research and practices that have changed certaily over the last 10 years. Carrots are very low in sugar and can add interest and enjoyment to an otherwise boring and restrictive diet. However the practice that I cannot uderstand it a vet advising movement for weight loss when it will likely cause greater damage to the laminae. Ok once everything is healed and secure ie a minimum of 30 post being sound off drugs in a box then gentle rehab exercise will help futher weight loss. Drastic weight loss in fat horses especially in small ponies and cobby types is a real problem of almost always fatal hypolipidemia. Slow steady weight loss and a full pony are what are needed so by all means soak and slow feed hay but make sure you have enough fibre going through the system and enough calories to keep metabolism active without resorting to fat globules in the blood
Thank you that mirrors my thinking, my vet is not advocating movement, my boy has been in the stable for over three weeks, luckily big stable and rubber matts x
 

majors

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As said before have a look at the laminitis site for info, incl feeding carrots! A few carrots in the day won’t hurt him, but I would stop the turnips, not always agreeable with a horses tummy! Def soaked hay, double net if need be, I’d agree with above 7.5kg drip fed over the day.and yes hi if molasses free is the better chop to feed. You can get him tested for cushings now, you don’t have to wait unless he is particularly stressed.
Thank you all very helpful, when he said reduce hay to 4.5kg all I could think was ulcers. Luckily he is annoyed but not stressed
 

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I've got one on weightwatchers here (EMS, and has had laminitis in the past) She weighs similar to your horse, and her starvation diet is 10kg per day of 12 hour soaked hay, plus a low calorie balancer, and the odd carrot.
My vet said that if we could find a supply of pure timothy hay, we could stop soaking, and let her have a bit more. No joy finding a supply round here (Berkshire), but might be worth having a hunt in your area
 

meleeka

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I've got one on weightwatchers here (EMS, and has had laminitis in the past) She weighs similar to your horse, and her starvation diet is 10kg per day of 12 hour soaked hay, plus a low calorie balancer, and the odd carrot.
My vet said that if we could find a supply of pure timothy hay, we could stop soaking, and let her have a bit more. No joy finding a supply round here (Berkshire), but might be worth having a hunt in your area
I managed to source some thrashed hay one year which was perfect for my fatties.
 

majors

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I managed to source some thrashed hay one year which was perfect for my fatties.[/
I've got one on weightwatchers here (EMS, and has had laminitis in the past) She weighs similar to your horse, and her starvation diet is 10kg per day of 12 hour soaked hay, plus a low calorie balancer, and the odd carrot.
My vet said that if we could find a supply of pure timothy hay, we could stop soaking, and let her have a bit more. No joy finding a supply round here (Berkshire), but might be worth having a hunt in your area
thankyou I will have a look😀
 

splashgirl45

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i know there isnt that much sugar in carrots but was querying why a vet would say feed carrots and turnips and restrict hay, seems very illogical to me as contrary to how our yard vet has advised. yes a carrot a day is nothing but to feed too many is not a good idea..
 

majors

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i know there isnt that much sugar in carrots but was querying why a vet would say feed carrots and turnips and restrict hay, seems very illogical to me as contrary to how our yard vet has advised. yes a carrot a day is nothing but to feed too many is not a good idea..
That’s what I thought, but was trying to take everything on so didn’t think of it till later x
 

Fruitcake

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http://www.thelaminitissite.org/articles/who-said-stop-the-carrots

Yes, carrots are high in sugar but it’s all relevant. G for g, carrots actually have less sugar and starch content than hay (and it’s not like they’re being fed in quantities to be a hay replacer anyway!) They also contain vitamin A, which horses on no grazing and old hay will be lacking so they’re not really the work of the devil that many people seem to make out and maybe the vet does know what he’s doing.

In terms of the hay amount though, I do think 4.5kg for a 500kg horse is too little. For weight loss, 1.5% of body weight is recommended and the absolute minimum needed for digestive motility is considered to be 1% (which, for a 500kg horse would by 5kg).
 

Mister Ted

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Soaking hay takes a lot of the sugars out but can make it unpalatable if its left too long and gets smelly.Replacing nutrients/ minerals is necessary if this is all the horse is being fed.I have in the past combined soaked hay and also fed a high fibre chaff and supplement. The weight loss here is a lot and he should not be looking thin. If he is stabled he will need to be nibbling overnight if he is not to get digestive trouble. An oldie needs more specialised tailored feeding and a small amount of hay wont keep him in good health for long .I would get advice from some of the big feed companies Spillers ,Horrell, and Page are reliable ones for NO sugar chaffs etc.
 

majors

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Soaking hay takes a lot of the sugars out but can make it unpalatable if its left too long and gets smelly.Replacing nutrients/ minerals is necessary if this is all the horse is being fed.I have in the past combined soaked hay and also fed a high fibre chaff and supplement. The weight loss here is a lot and he should not be looking thin. If he is stabled he will need to be nibbling overnight if he is not to get digestive trouble. An oldie needs more specialised tailored feeding and a small amount of hay wont keep him in good health for long .I would get advice from some of the big feed companies Spillers ,Horrell, and Page are reliable ones for NO sugar chaffs etc.
Hi is having dengie hi lite mixed with his Bute, I have ordered a no molasses mix dengie now. I worry all the time about ulcers etc
 

Mister Ted

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Hi is having dengie hi lite mixed with his Bute, I have ordered a no molasses mix dengie now. I worry all the time about ulcers etc
Molasses is high sugar and it often says if included on packs if it is included so steer clear of that.As long as he is "grazing " ad lib. chaff/hay his digestive system will be processing it well and ulcers should not be a risk. Hilton Herbs are good for supplements for oldies for their digestion,marshmallow and slippery elm is one.
 

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I used to slice carrots thinly lengthways and hide in the soaked haynets for a bit of welsh pony entertainment - he could smell them and snuffle them out.

I've struggled to find any hay this year that's been low enough in sugar for my PSSM mare. I think last year's heatwave gave it a lot of oomph. I hate soaking hay!
 

Goldenstar

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Everything horses eat in the natural way of things contains sugar .
Is the the issue with carrots that they can cause a blood sugar spike where what laminic horse is a restricted but steady supply of fibre rich slow to digest food .
 

sjp1

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Is lammi gut related in anyway? I have often wondered this. There are a lot of horses who are restricted on hay and grass I have seen and who have had lammi - they aren't fat all over - generally just in areas and some look too thin for their breed but still get it. Just wondered
 

Peter7917

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I would cut the hay down following the vets advice. If possible spread the nets through the day. Wont hurt to go a few hours with nothing. I also give straw. They don't really want to eat it but will pick at it if they are hungry enough.
 

holeymoley

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Is lammi gut related in anyway? I have often wondered this. There are a lot of horses who are restricted on hay and grass I have seen and who have had lammi - they aren't fat all over - generally just in areas and some look too thin for their breed but still get it. Just wondered

Yes laminitis starts in the gut with the majority of cases unless its mechanically induced.
 
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