Laminitis experts...thoughts required

Bryndu

Bryndu

Well-Known Member
Joined
30 July 2008
Messages
1,192
Visit site
Hi ,
I have a Sec C who has never had a lamenes in his 9 years and has always had feet of concrete. He is unshod (not barefoot and please don't suggest I go there) and has always been happy on unlevel ground.
Before I start....I lost my 'Soul pony' before Christmas to Cushings complicated laminitis at 9years old so feel ...sadly...that I have become an unwitting expert in laminitis.
However....the Sec C has come in from the field lame...no obvious signs...but he is footsore basically in all 4 feet. He is out 24/7 on mud (like the rest of the country) and comes in twice a day to have a break from the field to get out of the wet and to be ridden. When he is in he has palmful of Ready Grass and a palmful of H&P nuts to have a probio vit and min suppliment. He has haylage which has no nutritional value other than fibre as it was made in the last week in september from rubbish grass as we lost our hay crop to the weather.
So ....vet and farrier out.....both perplexed....the only thing the vet found was his soles were thin eg. on using the pincers...the soles were spongy.
The only thing that has happened recently is he has had his flu jab...and I have been reading up all about the good and the bad that can happen with that.....?
But my question is.....as I cannot say I noticed at the start with my other pony.....do the soles of laminitics become spongy at the start of laminitis before we would be able to xray?
Or do you think there is just a connection with the wet ground?
Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Bryndu
 
Last edited:
Thin soles are down to diet... excess sugars and/or mineral imbalance/deficiency or being trimmed too much. The wet on it's own wont make the soles thin but it appears it can soften them and if they are thin this is magnified. I would be concerned about laminitis if he's lame on all four feet. Thin soles often seem to accompany laminitis either acute or low grade.

ps. Laminitis in itself wont show up on X Ray. Changes that happen because of laminitis will ie. rotation or sinking of the pedal bone.
 
Last edited:
amandap said:
Thin soles are down to diet... excess sugars and/or mineral imbalance/deficiency or being trimmed too much. The wet on it's own wont make the soles thin but it appears it can soften them and if they are thin this is magnified. I would be concerned about laminitis if he's lame on all four feet. Thin soles often seem to accompany laminitis either acute or low grade.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this.....
He has gone from solid soles to squishy soles in 3 weeks......just sort of confirming that I fear the worst for him.
Thank you for taking the trouble...
Best wishes
Bryndy
 
ps. Laminitis in itself wont show up on X Ray. Changes that happen because of laminitis will ie. rotation or sinking of the pedal bone.

Thanks...yes...went through this with the previous boy...but good to know again.


amandap said:
Managing him as laminitic ie. off grass, deep bed etc. is important if you suspect laminitis. You wont do any harm if it isn't but it will help him hugely if it is.
Here's an idea of a diet that should help. x http://ecirhorse.org/images/stories/Emergency_Diet.pdf
I'd add a good balancer such as Forage Plus hoof health one or Pro hoof.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for this....I decided to manage him as a laminitic and pray it is not....
However.....after losing my other boy just 2 months ago.... I am really not sure I can cope with the dreaded condition all over again.....
Best wishes
Bryndu
 
Yes, I'm so sorry you might be facing this again. x

Having a second horse with possible laminitis points to something amiss in the grass or haylage. Can you switch to hay and soak it? If not try one of the Marksway haylages such as the high fibre one. Definitely stop the readigrass, even if only a palm full.
Getting him off grass will also dry his hooves out but I can't stress enough how important it is to be strict with diet and especially grass access.
 
amandap said:
Yes, I'm so sorry you might be facing this again. x

Having a second horse with possible laminitis points to something amiss in the grass or haylage. Can you switch to hay and soak it? If not try one of the Marksway haylages such as the high fibre one. Definitely stop the readigrass, even if only a palm full.
Getting him off grass will also dry his hooves out but I can't stress enough how important it is to be strict with diet and especially grass access.
Click to expand...

Thanks.
Best wishes
Bryndu
 
OP - I am so sorry to learn of the trouble you are having.

I am wondering if you have tested your haylage? There are a number of companies that can do this for you, but it is only worth it if you have a consistent supply from the same field/acreage.

Forage cut after a long wet summer can be very high in sugar and very low in minerals whether hay or haylage and a combination of high sugar low minerals can often very quickly lead to laminitis of some degree. Haylage can be worse because of the pH, which is usually below 7. The hind gut needs to maintain a pH of 7 to keep the beneficial bacteria alive.

Also check out your H&P nuts - many of the bags I've checked (the white label that is stitched on, not the marketing blurb) have sugar/starch combined of well in excess of 10%.

I second the recommendation of the ECIR emergency diet. I've seen it work well for many horses and ponies.
I hope your pony makes a quick recovery.
 
I'm going through a similar thing with my elderly cushings mare - she has had laminitis and now has soft thin soles, the pedal bone is millimetres from coming through her thin soles. Everything I ever read about is diet will help, although she has been on a good balancer, I am about to put her on Top Spec Anti-Lam. She is really off all food atmo, apparently this balancer can be fed by hand and is all she needs + soaked hay. So I am going to give it a go. Another one I was considering, was the Blue Chip Lami-Light - have a look at these in case one will suit your horse?
 
LucyPriory said:
OP - I am so sorry to learn of the trouble you are having.

I am wondering if you have tested your haylage? There are a number of companies that can do this for you, but it is only worth it if you have a consistent supply from the same field/acreage.

Forage cut after a long wet summer can be very high in sugar and very low in minerals whether hay or haylage and a combination of high sugar low minerals can often very quickly lead to laminitis of some degree. Haylage can be worse because of the pH, which is usually below 7. The hind gut needs to maintain a pH of 7 to keep the beneficial bacteria alive.

Also check out your H&P nuts - many of the bags I've checked (the white label that is stitched on, not the marketing blurb) have sugar/starch combined of well in excess of 10%.

I second the recommendation of the ECIR emergency diet. I've seen it work well for many horses and ponies.
I hope your pony makes a quick recovery.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your kind words.

The haylage is actually 5 day hay wrapped before it rained (again) and very dry as you can imagine and having made 'proper' haylage before...it is struggling to be haylage....but I will get it tested....I just believed it was 'pants' but it may not be.

Re the nuts they are 18 percent fibre, low starch and he actually only has 2 ounces a day...so I don't presume it would make much difference unless I fed him according to the feed instructions? Just a token in his bowl to keep him quiet when I feed the others.

I shall just have to wait and see how he responds....but am getting a bit depressed to be honest.....

Best wishes :)
Bryndu
 
Mudfukkle said:
I'm going through a similar thing with my elderly cushings mare - she has had laminitis and now has soft thin soles, the pedal bone is millimetres from coming through her thin soles. Everything I ever read about is diet will help, although she has been on a good balancer, I am about to put her on Top Spec Anti-Lam. She is really off all food atmo, apparently this balancer can be fed by hand and is all she needs + soaked hay. So I am going to give it a go. Another one I was considering, was the Blue Chip Lami-Light - have a look at these in case one will suit your horse?
Click to expand...

Thanks for this..
I fed my Cushings boy C-Plus from Feedmark to great success...if that helps...and he was a fussy feeder but wolfed that down. He also had Top Spec Top Chop Lite - unmolassed as I was paranoid about sugar. He was diagnosed at 7 and pts at 9 as he was deteriorating and he owed me nothing - so I did the best thing for him.
Your girl has got it in later life where I believe it is a more gradual onset and better able to be maitained.... but still causes anxious moments.... I do hope your girl improves:)
Best wishes:)
Bryndu
 
Bryndu said:
Thanks for this..
I fed my Cushings boy C-Plus from Feedmark to great success...if that helps...and he was a fussy feeder but wolfed that down. He also had Top Spec Top Chop Lite - unmolassed as I was paranoid about sugar. He was diagnosed at 7 and pts at 9 as he was deteriorating and he owed me nothing - so I did the best thing for him.
Your girl has got it in later life where I believe it is a more gradual onset and better able to be maitained.... but still causes anxious moments.... I do hope your girl improves:)
Best wishes:)
Bryndu
Click to expand...

Thanks for this re C-Plus, I must confess, I hadn't looked at any Feedmark stuff, so if she doesn't get on with or improve with the Anti-Lam, I will try Feedmark.

Bryndu - although she is 19yrs, she had a sudden onset last October :( she suddenly dropped loads of weight, ACTH went from 50 in Feb to 230 in October! She was fading fast, but I just couldn't PTS at the time, so she is on 3 Prascend - she was on Mebeverine but she was able to come off that - she also got lami and rotated 4.5 degrees in both front feet, but that is not her main problem, she has one foot where the sole is just not responding, it is soft and the bone is nearly through :( she has been on box rest since October which has been sooooo hard. We are only giving the foot 6 more weeks to respond, I'm just hoping that the Anit-Lam will have the desired effect alongside the "sugardine" and pads for support. It is such a horrible disease and I'm so sorry you lost yours big hugs and thanks for all your best wishes.x
 
I agree with the comments regarding the haylage. Get it tested before feeding any more. However, it can take a while for the results to come back. Mine took a month! So in the meantime you need to feed something that is GUARANTEED not to be more than 3% combined sugars. Marksway hi fibre or Marksway timothy haylage is the only one that I know of. I have managed to get my lami mare back to health several times by feeding this. Also, I would ask your vet if you can have some metformin for him. It sounds as though your horse may have metabolic issues. The metformin had an amazing effect on my girl (who is also on prascend for her Cushings). I would not turn him out until he is sound without bute.
 
Mudfukkle said:
Thanks for this re C-Plus, I must confess, I hadn't looked at any Feedmark stuff, so if she doesn't get on with or improve with the Anti-Lam, I will try Feedmark.

Bryndu - although she is 19yrs, she had a sudden onset last October :( she suddenly dropped loads of weight, ACTH went from 50 in Feb to 230 in October! She was fading fast, but I just couldn't PTS at the time, so she is on 3 Prascend - she was on Mebeverine but she was able to come off that - she also got lami and rotated 4.5 degrees in both front feet, but that is not her main problem, she has one foot where the sole is just not responding, it is soft and the bone is nearly through :( she has been on box rest since October which has been sooooo hard. We are only giving the foot 6 more weeks to respond, I'm just hoping that the Anit-Lam will have the desired effect alongside the "sugardine" and pads for support. It is such a horrible disease and I'm so sorry you lost yours big hugs and thanks for all your best wishes.x
Click to expand...

I would ask your vet to put her on metformin, even if she has not tested positive for insulin resistance. My mare tested negative last year but I insisted on getting her on metformin and didn't want to do the glucose test as she was in the middle of a lami attack. The metformin had her turning the corner after only a few days. It's a very safe drug, so what can you lose?
 
Mudfukkle said:
Thanks for this re C-Plus, I must confess, I hadn't looked at any Feedmark stuff, so if she doesn't get on with or improve with the Anti-Lam, I will try Feedmark.

Bryndu - although she is 19yrs, she had a sudden onset last October :( she suddenly dropped loads of weight, ACTH went from 50 in Feb to 230 in October! She was fading fast, but I just couldn't PTS at the time, so she is on 3 Prascend - she was on Mebeverine but she was able to come off that - she also got lami and rotated 4.5 degrees in both front feet, but that is not her main problem, she has one foot where the sole is just not responding, it is soft and the bone is nearly through :( she has been on box rest since October which has been sooooo hard. We are only giving the foot 6 more weeks to respond, I'm just hoping that the Anit-Lam will have the desired effect alongside the "sugardine" and pads for support. It is such a horrible disease and I'm so sorry you lost yours big hugs and thanks for all your best wishes.x
Click to expand...


Golly....I feel REALLY sorry for you....hadn't appreciated the quick onset for your girl.
I hope the sugardine and pads work.....and I SO agree about it being a horrible disease.
My boy had a secondary rotation and sinking in all 4 feet.....and there is no way back from that. He had a fab life...wanting for nothing.
Good luck with your girl:)
Best wishes and thanks for your support with good wishes.
Bryndu
 
Wagtail said:
I agree with the comments regarding the haylage. Get it tested before feeding any more. However, it can take a while for the results to come back. Mine took a month! So in the meantime you need to feed something that is GUARANTEED not to be more than 3% combined sugars. Marksway hi fibre or Marksway timothy haylage is the only one that I know of. I have managed to get my lami mare back to health several times by feeding this. Also, I would ask your vet if you can have some metformin for him. It sounds as though your horse may have metabolic issues. The metformin had an amazing effect on my girl (who is also on prascend for her Cushings). I would not turn him out until he is sound without bute.
Click to expand...

Thanks again for this.
Mrs Vet coming out again...we are going to do 'the test'....although tbh it scares the hell out of me....it is better to know to be better prepared to deal with any outcomes....and I have put him on hay which I had left from the previous year (was feeding it to the sheep but they will swop to haylage) which had been tested and I know has a low sugar content.
Thanks for taking the time and hope your girl stays well.
Best wishes :)
Bryndu
 
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Reddi Grass, This is very high in sugar, as its spring grass which has been freeze dried... Its the worse thing in the world for lami prone ponies. I found this out after feeding it to my lami pony as an alternative to Just Grass.
 
Bryndu said:
Thanks again for this.
Mrs Vet coming out again...we are going to do 'the test'....although tbh it scares the hell out of me....it is better to know to be better prepared to deal with any outcomes....and I have put him on hay which I had left from the previous year (was feeding it to the sheep but they will swop to haylage) which had been tested and I know has a low sugar content.
Thanks for taking the time and hope your girl stays well.
Best wishes :)
Bryndu
Click to expand...

I was too scared to have the test done as it required me to feed 500 g of glucose to her. I was really worried about it and so in the end rang the head vet at the practice and told him that this horse means the world to me and I don't want to do the test but I do want to put her on metformin. :o He agreed to just let me put her on it. :)
 
Suffolkangel said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Reddi Grass, This is very high in sugar, as its spring grass which has been freeze dried... Its the worse thing in the world for lami prone ponies. I found this out after feeding it to my lami pony as an alternative to Just Grass.
Click to expand...

Thanks Suffolkangel......someone did mention the Readigrass:)
He has not been....and still may not....be prone to any lami....and tbh less than an ounce of Readigrass should not pose a problem.....
Best wishes
Bryndu
 
Wagtail said:
I was too scared to have the test done as it required me to feed 500 g of glucose to her. I was really worried about it and so in the end rang the head vet at the practice and told him that this horse means the world to me and I don't want to do the test but I do want to put her on metformin. :o He agreed to just let me put her on it. :)
Click to expand...

Actually...there is another blood test that can be done to test for any raised levels with regard to Cushings/EMS which doesn't require steroids or glucose. Not as precise...but if levels are raised....they are a good indication....
Hope this helps:)
Bryndu
 
Bryndu said:
Actually...there is another blood test that can be done to test for any raised levels with regard to Cushings/EMS which doesn't require steroids or glucose. Not as precise...but if levels are raised....they are a good indication....
Hope this helps:)
Bryndu
Click to expand...

Yes, my girl tested negative to this which is why the vet wanted to test her with the glucose test. However, the fact that she responded so well to the metformin shows that she probably is insulin resistant.
 
Wagtail said:
Yes, my girl tested negative to this which is why the vet wanted to test her with the glucose test. However, the fact that she responded so well to the metformin shows that she probably is insulin resistant.
Click to expand...

Yes...you are right.
I am not going to expose my boy to the glucose or the steroids.....but depending on the outcome of the test...will proceed with caution.
So glad your girl responded so well:)
Best wishes
Bryndu
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top